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The end of poor quality ICT courses at KS4?

Last post 20/04/09 at 13:14 by disco_biscuit, 57 replies
Post started by fortuneteller on 02/04/09 at 19:55

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    Posted by: djphillips1408 03/04/2009 at 09:20
    Joined on 16/09/2001
    Posts 2,107

    fortuneteller:
    So, you have a new year 10 starting ICT next September. What will you inflict on them?
    A vocational course with no future which has got its assessment in a muddle that can only be sorted out by action that would fail vast numbers of candidates...
    Or maybe take the newly increased sum of money for introducing an IT Diploma, and offer something with a defined standard, career relevance, employer backing and plenty of support for its teaching

    Why is there no future for OCR/DIDA? why is assessment a muddle? What evidence do you have?

    Why is diploma career relevant? What support is there - point me to the resources that I could use with kids?

    What employer backing to I have in my region - Shepway in Kent, where are the great swathes of employers for ICT down here? How are kids gonna get to them?

    Defined standard - erm defined by whom, what makes the standard of your course superior/more achievable to the other courses.?

    I don't even know why I bother with replying, youwork for an organisation that has been nothing more than the Claudio Ranieri of the educational system. Your tinkering will lead nowhere and with time your initiatives get dropped and what we will be left with are courses that can be delivered in school within established systems. Nothing much has changed since the days of O level and CSE because these are the practical limitations of the environment we operate in. Only a fool can possibly believe that kids will go into the world of work experience for a subject like ICT and learn more than they could in a school.

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    Posted by: planetx 03/04/2009 at 09:20
    Joined on 11/09/2008
    Posts 3,816

    Why do we teach people to read? Is it because we want them to be able to get a job?

    Obviously they will be at a disadvantage if they can't read, but surely our reasons must be much broader than that. People need to read to access all the other learning, but even that isn't enough.

    If you can read you have access to things that inform and things that give pleasure and the great thing is that you are free to choose. I gained that freedom by the time I was seven or eight.

    So why has literacy and English gone down the route of making it such a chore? I meet so many children who can barely read. I meet so many children who say, "reading is boring." Not once in my life have I ever felt such a sentiment.

    Why do we teach people ICT? Is it because we want them to be able to get a job?

    Obviously they will be at a disadvantage if they can't use ICT, but surely our reasons must be much broader than that. People need ICT to access all the other learning, but even that isn't enough.

    If you can use ICT you have access to things that inform and things that give pleasure and the great thing is that you are free to choose.

    So why has ICT gone down the route of making it such a chore? I meet so many children who say, "ICT is boring." Not once in my life have I ever felt such a sentiment.

    I don't think it's just ICT. The life has been sucked out of so much educational experience, but ICT is particularly bad because it doesn't seem to fit anywhere. One the walls of the year three class I was in yesterday there were fun posters, made by the children using pencil, paint and crayon about Henry VIII. In the same school, the posters about WWII made by year 5 are lifeless constructions of clip art, wordart and downloaded pictures. ICT has not added anything to the learning.

    What is really frightening is that you see just the same poster styles in year 7 through 11. It's as if nobody stops to ask, "just what is it that makes an effective poster?" ICT in this instance is simply a vehicle to extend other skills and mostly it doesn't achieve that.

    e.g. i've just done Unit 4 - design a multimedia product in powerpoint and could have easiliy done it in flash, but i am limited to what my department want me to teach.

    I'm assuming this is key stage 4 and from what you are saying, there might be no new learning going on here,  just the old assembling of bits found elsewhere with some stock animation whether it's needed ot not. I don't understand why your department don't jump at the chance of you adding to their resources with a scheme using flash. Surely the value you add is value to the department and not just for yourself.

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    Posted by: DEmsley 03/04/2009 at 09:24
    Joined on 18/05/2006
    Posts 3,963

    fortuneteller:
    So, you have a new year 10 starting ICT next September. What will you inflict on them?
    A vocational course with no future which has got its assessment in a muddle that can only be sorted out by action that would fail vast numbers of candidates...
    Or maybe take the newly increased sum of money for introducing an IT Diploma, and offer something with a defined standard, career relevance, employer backing and plenty of support for its teaching.

    I'd LOVE to offer something with a defined standard, career relevance, employer backing and plenty of support for its teaching.  Links to the specification of such a course would be really appreciated

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    Posted by: MrG_ICT 03/04/2009 at 09:31
    Joined on 12/02/2008
    Posts 1,028

    I ban word art after year 7, if they want a banner, they need to look at alternatives.

     

    in this school, it's all about the pass rate, not the skill taught.

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    Posted by: fortuneteller 03/04/2009 at 11:11
    Joined on 02/07/2005
    Posts 216

    DEmsley:

    I'd LOVE to offer something with a defined standard, career relevance, employer backing and plenty of support for its teaching.  Links to the specification of such a course would be really appreciated

    The Principal Learning across the Diplomas has been standardised. The value of a Diploma is unlikely to fall into the same hole as Dida and OCR. Diplomas have been created by Sector Skills Councils, i.e. employers, to represent how they would like to see subjects taught with the right balance of subject knowledge and application.  Each Diploma is career orientated. Take a look at the TES today for quite a lot of coverage about teacher support for Diploma teaching.  Will that do?

    Coming back to my question about what IT course you will choose for the next Y11 cohort, you should run your choice forward in time two years and consider how your students, coming out perhaps with a dubious 4 GCSEs in Advanced Year 8 Studies, will compare in their life chances to those emerging from having achieved the IT Diploma. 
    To promote IT courses with low standards could be an endorsement of a sink school IT department. 

    ICT leaders should consider the extent to which the Ofsted report on ICT has stengthened their professional standing should they now advise their school against continuation of IT courses of dubious value.
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    Posted by: djphillips1408 03/04/2009 at 11:28
    Joined on 16/09/2001
    Posts 2,107

    fortuneteller:
    To promote IT courses with low standards could be an endorsement of a sink school IT department.

    As you duck the questions from post 21 I repeat why are the standards higher on the diploma? what do they learn that is higher than OCR Nationals? Have you even compared the specs? Put some meat on the bones please....

    I'll start you off, let's run with the most popular full option choice on OCR being the web design unit. Could you outline why the standards in the diploma are higher than those on the OCR course?

    I fully admit that I have not read the spec for the diploma with regards to web design so I may well be wrong but somehow gut feeling tells me your course offers nothing beyond and above the standards laid down by OCR. Oh yes don't forget that I target all my kids at distinction criteria for this unit so don't draw comparisons to the pass criteria. Still that's the low standards that I endorse in my sink school department so will not be a problem for you.

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    Posted by: piggypiggy 03/04/2009 at 11:42
    Joined on 17/10/2004
    Posts 456

    Will you please get back to work and stop posting here during class time. Look! Abi at the back has had her hand up for ages, poor lass.

     

    Your Headmistress.

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    Posted by: ICTBN 03/04/2009 at 12:44
    Joined on 28/10/2007
    Posts 102

    fortuneteller:

    So, you have a new year 10 starting ICT next September. What will you inflict on them?
    A vocational course with no future which has got its assessment in a muddle that can only be sorted out by action that would fail vast numbers of candidates...

    I will be teaching DiDA, because whilst some people may not choose to teach it (and that is clearly a personal choice), my students and my staff all enjoy the subject. I will not be selecting a course that looks startlingly dull and unmotivating. What I shall continue to do is teach my students a variety of ICT(?!) skills, including VB, javascript, photoshop, web design, spreadsheets, databases etc. etc. to as high a level as I choose, because the course allows me the flexibility to do this.

    What I do not want to do is go back to (applied ICT anyone?) asking them to write a bunch of poxy reports about: (taken from http://www.diplomainfo.org.uk/documents/IT_Level_2_Principal_Learning_ammended.pdf)

    • "Explained organisational structures and functions within a wide variety of
      organisations, showing how the structure is appropriate for each organisation." OR
    • "Compared and contrasted the cultures, values and goals of organisations studied and how this impacts on the organisations in meeting their objectives"

    Maybe the nationals and DiDA aren't perfect, but they are a damn site better than that load of old twaddle..

    ..hmm, hang on though...they could make a powerpoint about the stuff above...that sounds great..oh, and put clip arts in...YES!

     

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    29
    Posted by: fortuneteller 03/04/2009 at 12:50
    Joined on 02/07/2005
    Posts 216

    djphillips1408:
    As you duck the questions from post 21 I repeat why are the standards higher on the diploma? what do they learn that is higher than OCR Nationals? Have you even compared the specs? Put some meat on the bones please....

    The link to the Ofsted report that crticises standards on the OCR and Dida courses is at this link  There hasn't been any critcism of standards in the Principal Learning for the Diplomas.
    QED : there are differences in standards.  Feel free to do further research into this.

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    Posted by: djphillips1408 03/04/2009 at 12:58
    Joined on 16/09/2001
    Posts 2,107

    fortuneteller:
    There hasn't been any critcism of standards in the Principal Learning for the Diplomas.

    erm that's because the course has not been running long enough to find out and the critcism of the OCR was of the pass grade levels not the distinction.

    fortuneteller:
    QED : there are differences in standards.

    No QED: only one has had standards assessed so far

    fortuneteller:
    Feel free to do further research into this.

    In other words you can not answer my questions because you have no working knowledge of the standards and can not put meat on the bones. As I said please justify why the standards of say the web design aspect of the diploma are higher than the OCR Nationals. You don't know do you.

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