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Keep your hands off our pension!

Last post 09/07/09 at 22:12 by Jammers, 315 replies
Post started by doublehelix on 28/06/09 at 09:05

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    Posted by: doublehelix 28/06/2009 at 09:05
    Joined on 15/02/2009
    Posts 183

    I've heard several commentators on the television and radio make threats concerning teachers' pensions.

    e.g. 'In private business many employees have lost their pension rights so its only fair the public sector lose their superior index-linked arrangements.'

    No its not fair. Teachers have contributed throughout their working life on the agreement that they would receive a particular pension. As far as I am concerned, its a contract which neither side can break. We've had to endure the lower pay which goes with the public sector. We've done this in the knowledge of greater pension security that goes with working for the government. In good times, private sector employees get pay increases and bonuses. We do not. So it is not right to remove our pension benefits in hard times.

     

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    Posted by: existentialtyke 28/06/2009 at 09:11
    Joined on 02/03/2005
    Posts 8,440

    It is more complex than that and I do see why they need to look at it. Of course, the problem was aggravated when Gordon Brown raided the private pension funds to allocate resources, in many instances, to a bloated and failing public sector.

    We are now in a situation where private sector employees are paying more for public sector pensions than they are for their own. They are right to be angry about that.

    There are 2 sides to this with meritable arguments.  

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    Posted by: anon432 28/06/2009 at 09:41
    Joined on 04/12/2008
    Posts 12,182

    doublehelix:
    In good times, private sector employees get pay increases
     

    Public secor pay is normally increased both in the good and bad times.

    The issue with most public sector pension scheme is that they are paid out of taxation. Reality is the liabilities of the TPS is £181 billion or £1500 per family. Is it sustainable indefinitely?

     

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    Posted by: kent1 28/06/2009 at 09:47
    Joined on 30/10/2008
    Posts 2,230

    MeanAverageJoe:
    The issue with most public sector pension scheme is that they are paid out of taxation. Reality is the liabilities of the TPS is £181 billion or £1500 per family. Is it sustainable indefinitely?
     

     

    Teachers' Pensions - like most private schemes in fact - were in robust health c.1997, until Gordon Brown stole much of their wealth. For  that alone he should end his days in the Tower of London, IMHO...

    MeanAverageJoe:
    Public secor pay is normally increased both in the good and bad times.

     

    Usually much less than the private sector in good times, but sometimes a little more in bad times...

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    Posted by: autismuk 28/06/2009 at 10:16
    Joined on 05/02/2005
    Posts 12,445

    kent1:
    Teachers' Pensions - like most private schemes in fact - were in robust health c.1997, until Gordon Brown stole much of their wealth. For  that alone he should end his days in the Tower of London, IMHO.
     

    You might be a good historian Kent but you're not much good at economics ;-) The teachers pension, along with the other public sector pension (Coppers probably the worst) is a giant unsustainable handout which is getting worse with increased longevity and an endless increase in the number of public sector workers.

    Occasionally some dimwit union type produces figures that 'prove' they pay for their pension, but these are (IME anyway) always based fraudulently ; e.g. they are calculated in a massive boom period and ignore the pre-post crashes & add a bit on for luck. It's always enlightening to find a pensions calculator, put in what you get out, and see how much you'd actually have to contribute to get that pension.

    There is a very strong case for simply stopping the public sector pensions and converting them to the same pensions that everyone else gets.

     

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    Posted by: autismuk 28/06/2009 at 10:23
    Joined on 05/02/2005
    Posts 12,445

    kent1:
    Usually much less than the private sector in good times, but sometimes a little more in bad times...
     

    This is (another) teachers myth ; that they could get much more in the private sector, usually illustrated by pointing at x,y and z who earn £60k pa or whatever. Oddly no-one ever points at the Burger servers in MacDonalds.

     

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    Posted by: kent1 28/06/2009 at 10:27
    Joined on 30/10/2008
    Posts 2,230

    autismuk:
    There is a very strong case for simply stopping the public sector pensions and converting them to the same pensions that everyone else gets.
     

     

    Pre -1997 most other (private sector) pensions were in pretty robust health. Their basis was destoyed by stealth taxes -- a form of fraud IMHO. The result may well be that the government (& future ones) has to make this up out of other revenue - but that is due to Nu- Labour's short termism.

    However their are other reasons why they should continue to be paid - apart from the moral case that a commitment once entered into should not be broken - is that teachers have accepted lower salaries than most graduates with equivalent qualifications, and one of the reasons we accepted that is the knowldge of the good pension awaiting us. Remove that and the moral outrage and sheer anger that would emerge might well surprise...

     

    autismuk:
    ccasionally some dimwit union type produces figures that 'prove' they pay for their pension,

    All teachers pay into a pension scheme. We know what this will be worth at various stages - like most teachers, I suspect, I ask no more or less than that agreement, freely entred into by both sides, is held to. if the government breaks that as far as I am concerend they have broken a legal contract....

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    Posted by: autismuk 28/06/2009 at 10:38
    Joined on 05/02/2005
    Posts 12,445

    Kent, you've (mostly) repeated yourself.

    I do agree with the view that there are moral and legal problems with the teachers pension (and the other public sector ones), but the reality is that such are simply not affordable now, nor have they been since people started to live significantly beyond 60.

    A public sector pension is horribly expensive. Not only because it is index linked, but it is often final salary as well, and the often used early retirement.

    A copper for example can easily have a longer pensionable lifespan than he/she works (e.g. start at 18, retire at 48, die at 80).

    But it is simply untrue that teachers are paid less than people would get in private industry, even if you add on money for the pension handouts. Teachers are all (more or less) paid the same, which flattens wages out. In a private industry world a Physics teacher would be paid more than you (History teacher) even if you did the same work.

    In private industry there are people who are paid very little as well as those who seem to be paid a lot ; teachers universally think they would be in the latter group for some reason that mystifies me. It is also ridiculous to talk about equivalent qualifications as some degrees are more valuable to the private sector than others and some, which you can teach with, are virtually worthless.

    Stealth taxes have had little or no effect on the teachers pension. There is no teachers pension fund as there is in private industry ; it is simply paid out of current taxation. Taxes are required to *pay* these pensions (Council tax rises mostly I think).

    What I think may have to happen is that the public sector pensions are bought out at their current value and the money transferred into sustainable pension schemes. At some point, someone is going to have to bite this bullet.

    As someone pointed out, a private sector worker is now paying more for your pension than he is for his own, which is an absurdity really.

     

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    Posted by: kent1 28/06/2009 at 11:02
    Joined on 30/10/2008
    Posts 2,230

    autismuk:
    What I think may have to happen is that the public sector pensions are bought out at their current value and the money transferred into sustainable pension schemes. At some point, someone is going to have to bite this bullet.
     

     

    If it was changed for new entrants, I supect it would be (grudgingly) accepted; if it were done retrospectively then the repurcussions would be significant - perhaps the one thing that would get me to take part in direct action, for example.

    And any government which alienated all public sector workers like that would lost literally hundreds of thousands of votes, I expect...

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    Posted by: autismuk 28/06/2009 at 11:07
    Joined on 05/02/2005
    Posts 12,445

    kent1:

    If it was changed for new entrants, I supect it would be (grudgingly) accepted; if it were done retrospectively then the repurcussions would be significant - perhaps the one thing that would get me to take part in direct action, for example.

    And any government which alienated all public sector workers like that would lost literally hundreds of thousands of votes, I expect...

     

    I know :( This is why politicians keep pushing it under the carpet. 

    This lot did try, right at the start, I think they suggested pushing the PS retirement age to 65 OTOMH and the kickback they got meant they backed straight down.

    It's like the debt issue - at some point it has to be addressed.

    It may be slightly ameliorated by (hopefully) a large number of pointless quango people being fired when we have a new government. (Though doubtless they have signed up to stupid redundancy deals as well).

     

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