busy_little_bee:

As a profession we are plagued by bad behaviour of pupils in the classrom. When I read posts about bad behaviour on this site the most common response is to have clear standards for behavour and definite sanctions. Bad behaviour leads to clear sanction.

My question is, does anyone actually do much work trying to identify the causes of bad behaviour in individuals and sort of the problems rather than just implementing the sanction.Do you feel you actually understand behaviour management or do you simply understand sanctions.

What strategies do you adopt to understand bad behaviour and deal with it rather than battling against it?

The problem with your question is that it suggests that bad behaviour is hard to understand and that we have to work to identify the cause. This difficulty only exists in the heads of people who have a philosophy that says "children are naturally good". If you believe that, then you might well feel obliged to look for explanations for why these naturally good children are not being good.

If, on the other hand, you have a realistic view of human nature, and you actually acknowledge that all human beings have a desire to do bad things, then there is no further cause to be found. In fact efforts to find a cause and thereby cure the bad behaviour are nothing more than efforts to "cure" human nature and doomed to failure. This is why all the resources that SEN departments put into children with "behaviour problems" never stop the bad behaviour and usually end with the SEN people either giving up or even trying to blame the classroom teacher.

I have written about this in more detail here:

• Human Nature
• Blamelessness
• The Blameless. Part 1: The Young
• The Blameless. Part 2: The Poor
• The Blameless. Part 3: The Afflicted
• Needs

busy_little_bee:

You have written in more detail haven't you. I have seen your blog referenced from your posts quite a few times. I think my question suggests that the causes of bad behaviour might be complicated but possible to understand. I do not see this as a problem, i see it as an opportunity.

The point is that this is wrong. The cause of bad behaviour is not difficult to understand: human weakness.

busy_little_bee:

I would not assume that any individual is ether naturally good or naturally bad.

It's not an either/or situation. You are free to assume that people naturally want to do some good things. I certainly do. The important part is that you also assume that they naturally want to do some bad things.

If you don't assume this then you are making the even more unlikely assumption that a person is either a blank slate or a saint.

An assumption like that is not only unjustified, it is obviously wrong.

busy_little_bee:

I would look at behaviour and try to find ways to prevent it from having a negative effect on me, my pupils or anyone else.

In the OP you condemned this approach. You said it wasn't actually trying to sort behaviour.

busy_little_bee:

I don't try to change human nature why would I wish to do so. If I assume that behaviour can be learned then I might also assume that behaviour can be unlearned, without changing human nature.

Wow, I'm more persuasive than I thought. You have switched completely from trying to understand bad behaviour, to teaching kids not to do it. 

Brilliant.

busy_little_bee:

I have seen many examples of pupils whose behaviour is transformed by interventions.

Er-huh.

Tell me, are you a classroom teacher who has seen other people's interventions work for kids you teach. Or are you somebody in charge of carrying out "interventions" who has convinced themself that they have done some good?

busy_little_bee:

You have an interesting perspective which I think is answering no to my question. You have an interesting writing style which presents your opinions as if they were fact,

If something is obvious then it is very difficult to remember to try and justify it for people who are wilfully ignoring the obvious. Feel free to identify an opinion that I haven't justified. Frankly I would have thought linking to pages of discussion of my position was more justification than people normally get.

busy_little_bee:

which perhaps goes some way towards explaining your approach to behaviour management, an approach that you have made very clear on your blog. You draw conclusions without good cause in your post but pehaps this also arises from your fixed views of the issues involved.

The blog has a comment facility. I suggest you use it to challenge these unjustified unconclusions. Otherwise it looks like pure wishful thinking on your part that anybody who disagrees with you must be reaching unjustified conclusions. 

busy_little_bee:

Your blog seems a little depressing and negative at times. Maybe this represents your experiences of dealing with pupil behaviour.

I am not depressed. I love teaching and I love writing about it. I simply believe that the first step to solving a problem is to identify it. When people say that they find it negative to identify problems then I can only assume that this is because they resent people with the drive and enthusiasm necessary to try and solve them. 

busy_little_bee:

I believe evry human being has the capacity and motivation to do both good things and bad things. Which they do in a particular situation is up to the individal. I think this is blindingly obvious which i why I said I would not assume that a person was either good or bad.

If you accept that every human being has the motivation to do bad things, then why were you talking about "identifying the causes of bad behaviour"? You have already identified the cause.

busy_little_bee:

Human weakness may in some instances be a necessary condition

"in some instances"? When is it not necessary? I suspect any cases where students do bad behaviour but never had the desire to behave badly are very strange and unusual.

busy_little_bee:

for bad behaviour but in my view it is iulikly to be sufficient. It may be one of several conditions that together will be sufficient.

Well, I suppose as well as motive you need opportunity, but it is not usual to consider this as a "cause".

busy_little_bee:

I was not condemning any approach, I was simply asking whether people actual feel that they understand behaviour management and try to deal with causes or whether they feel they understand sanctions and their use.

And I have answered. I have told you the cause of bad behaviour is human nature and I have explained to you that this cannot be "dealt with" as you suggest.

busy_little_bee:

I do not believe that sanctions have much impact on future bad behaviour for many poorly behaved pupils and do not even attempt to minmise the impact of bad behaviour. 

For many kids i think sanctions one their own are not a deterrent.

As ever, as somebody who is suggesting an unworkable alternative you start by slagging off the common sense action for not being perfect. You are quite right that sanctions do not change human nature to the point where nobody ever offends.

However, given that you cannot change human nature then this does not stop sanctions being the most effective method, and the only fair method.

busy_little_bee:

I am not sure where you got ths one from (Wow, I'm more persuasive than I thought. You have switched completely from trying to understand bad behaviour, to teaching kids not to do it. ) because teaching kids not to do it is the purpose of this thread. I haven't switched at all. I don't think sanctions each kids anything much in most cases. I beieve that understanding the causes (and human weakness is not a cause of anything) of an individuals bad behaviour will allow me to intervene and facilitate future changes in the pupil's behaviour.

Can you make your mind up, please? Are you advocating understanding the causes of behaviour, or teaching kids not to misbehave. These are not the same thing at all.

busy_little_bee:

Tell me, are you a classroom teacher who has seen other people's interventions work for kids you teach. Or are you somebody in charge of carrying out "interventions" who has convinced themself that they have done some good?

 I have seen changed behaviour in pupils which I believe have resulted from interventions based upon understanding the causes of bad behaviour.

You appear not to have answered the question. I ask it for a reason. In my experience, and the experience of many teachers I know, people who carry out interventions often think interventions have worked, but nobody else ever does. So it does make a difference if you are somebody who carries out interventions or if you are a classroom teacher benefitting from other people's interventions.

busy_little_bee:

 Things you have stated as fact which are your opinions include:

*The point is that this is wrong. The cause of bad behaviour is not difficult to understand: human weakness.

*and you actually acknowledge that all human beings have a desire to do bad things, then there is no further cause to be found.

*In fact efforts to find a cause and thereby cure the bad behaviour are nothing more than efforts to "cure" human nature and doomed to failure

*This is why all the resources that SEN departments put into children with "behaviour problems" never stop the bad behaviour

Quite often the links are not to discussion on your blog but to satements you make.

 

I'm baffled now. The first three are justified in detail in the links I sent, and therefore you cannot possibly describe them simply as opinions presented as facts. They are opinions which I have justified at length and you have not been able to challenge.

The last one is an extrapolation from the experience of myself and every classroom teacher I have ever talked to about this, but I would have thought it obvious that this is an opinion. Should I have put "in my opinion" before it?

busy_little_bee:

I find the blog negative because it seems to me to be very negative.I dont find it negative because I resent you (LOL) or because I dont have the drive and enthusiasm to try to deal with the behaviour issue. I am going to be doing some action research next year in which I am going to try to find a way to diagnose the causes of bad behaviour and put in appropriate interventions.

The point is that this does not deal with bad behaviour.

In my opinion. 

busy_little_bee:

I was hoping that others would post giving me an idea of how they go about behaviour management.

I find the blog very negative:

You've now said that three times in one post. Almost like it is a mantra for dismissing inconvenient opinions.

busy_little_bee:

it talks about battleground, it talks about sticking his report up his arse, it talks about  leaving teaching. If I have misunderstood the blog and it is intended to send a essage of the drive and enthusiasm to improve behaviour then it didnt communicate well to me. It seemed a bit like a whinge, albeit giving many examples of teaching experience with which I identify.

The confusion is that you appear to think that you can improve things by ignoring what is currently wrong. The first step to solving a problem is identifying it. 

This is called "whinging" by people who don't want improvement, and who are only willing to suggest that we have more of the same, but it is how things get improved.

You have inspired me to write a blog entry about this.

busy_little_bee:

I cannot see how human weaknes can be the cause of bad behaviour. We all have human weaknesses but we dont all behave badly.

 

Yes we do. (Or am I talking to a living saint?)

busy_little_bee:

Could you explain to me how, having determined that the cause of bad behaviour is human weakness, how you personally see the potential solution to the problem. How do you manage behaviour. Thanks

Well, obviously, I don't think there is a solution to the problem of human behaviour and that trying to find one is an excuse for wasting time and resources on unworkable nonsense.

However, I do think we can solve the behaviour crisis, and would direct you to back to my blog for more detail.

 Mr Leonard

Thank you for that thoughtful reply, it is much appreciated.

 oldandrew

I thank you also for your thoughtful reply which is much appreciated.

I can't see any benfit in simply regurgitating the whole thing but the are a couple of points I would like to make.

I have told you the cause of bad behaviour is human nature and I have explained to you that this cannot be "dealt with" as you suggest.

And I have told you that I believe human weakness/nature my be  necessary but usually insufficient of itself. I also believe that it is difficult if not impossible to change human and I am therefore thinking about addressing some of the other causes which together with human weakness result in poor behaviour.

As ever, as somebody who is suggesting an unworkable alternative

I am unsure whether you are saying that there is an alternative but it is not feasible in practice, and your opinion that it is unworkable I am interested in.

However, given that you cannot change human nature then this does not stop sanctions being the most effective method

If you cannot change human nature you clearly can change an individuals attitudes, beliefs and values and it is quite possibly these factors which influence an individuals behaviour.

 Can you make your mind up, please? Are you advocating understanding the causes of behaviour, or teaching kids not to misbehave. These are not the same thing at all.

I said already that I think that undertanding the causes of poor behaviour might give insight into how an individual might be taught to change their behaviour. Maybe you didn't read that bit or maybe it doesn't fit with your view of either poor beaviour or my view on the subject.

 You appear not to have answered the question.

 Again I have already said that I have seen many successful interventions, some of these with kids I teach and some with kids I have ever taught.

 Well, obviously, I don't think there is a solution to the problem of human behaviour and that trying to find one is an excuse for wasting time and resources on unworkable nonsense.

Why do you talk of human nature/human weakness in one brath and then start talking about human behaviour as if they were the same thing. I am not sure I can change human nature but why should I believe that I cannot facilitate the unlearning of behaviours.

I actually did not fid that your blog addressed the issues raised above, and even if you adopt your usual (Margaret Thatcher approach) aggressive reply that anyone who doesn't agree with you must be either stupid or hasn't read your blog properly it wn't necessarily change my view.

Could you also pont out the upbeat/positive aspects of your blog for me.

ps..Having read all of your blog including the comments I see that I am not the first person to question your using assumptions to develp conclusions which you present as certain.