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Does the UK not want OTT's

Last post 14/12/11 at 21:01 by colleen17, 53 replies
Post started by africanrefugee2 on 24/11/09 at 16:42

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    Posted by: africanrefugee2 24/11/2009 at 16:42
    Joined on 16/10/2009
    Posts 53

    Am I imagining it or are schools actively discouraging OTT’s. I am an OTT with over 25 years teaching experience in Zimbabwe and South Africa (both former colonies with British based education systems). I trained at a much respected Teachers Training College in Zimbabwe graduating with a Cert Ed in 1983. Now I accept that I do not have a degree and did a 3 year course, but my 25 years teaching experience is way more invaluable than a 4th year at university, besides the route to my Cert Ed was exactly the same as the British route to a Cert Ed at the time. I am British Born and have both the right of abode and the right to work in the UK.

    The thing is, I have applied for over 100 advertised vacancies in West Sussex and Hampshire without success. Admittedly when I started this process in September, my personal statement was brief, but after reading the TES columns and your advice on statements etc, mine is now comprehensive. I include 2 excellent written references from the last two schools I taught at, and these along with my personal statement, should have at least got me to an interview. I have been turned down by quite a few, not heard from a few more (which I believe shows unprofessionalism by the schools involved) and have seen a number of vacancies re-advertised.  I assume the re-advertising of the position is due to the school having not received an application from a suitable candidate. I believe that without first interviewing me or seeing me teach, a school is unable to quantify my ability as a teacher, and therefore all I can assume is that my qualification is not recognised and no British school is willing to take on an OTT if they can help it. Without employment I am unable to do an OTTP and therefore unable to convert my qualification to one that is acceptable in the UK.

    I have been into some British schools as a Supply Teacher. From what I have seen the schools are well resourced but the students are, if anything, behind children of an equivalent age in South Africa. As my husband is South African and in the UK on a general visitor visa, I will be returning to South Africa in January next year as he will be unable to change his visa if I cannot find work to support us and thereby satisfy immigration.

    So am I imagining it or is the UK actually discouraging OTT’s.

     

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    Posted by: armandine2 01/12/2009 at 22:01
    Joined on 06/03/2008
    Posts 170

    I doubt the active discouragement and the qualification qualms aren't it either. It might be your age and your familarity with current uk practice and their lack of confidence in employing a foreign teacher. You might like to focus more on the quality of your submissions to the schools, and aim higher.

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    Posted by: lester123 01/12/2009 at 22:58
    Joined on 22/10/2009
    Posts 5

    The govt does NOT want OTT. The situation here has really changed in the last 10 years and the UK has been training many teachers of their own. This has really changed the experiences of the OTT.

    There have been several changes that have resulted in a 'perfect storm' for OTT. The restructuring of supply (using TAs and Cover Supervisors), the increasing use of agencies who pay cut price daily rates to teachers and the newly enforced ''4 year rule'' for QT. Another blow for the OTT is the weakened pound.

     

    Personally, as London based OTT who was fortunate to work during the glory years of the early noughties, the situation has almost done a 360' in terms of work conditions. Back then we were in demand and valued as both supply and class teachers and we were on high daily supply rates (in 2003 I was actually on the same daily rate of 120 pounds as I am on now---6 years later).

     

    I am in a similar situation as you (from Australia) and am currently doing supply in independent schools as I work as quickly as I can to get into another field and out of education altogether.

    The government doesn’t need us or want us and really don’t see the situation changing. I would strongly discourage all OTT coming her in the future.

    I really wish the Australian government made is equally hard for UK teachers who immigrate there.

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    Posted by: BigFrankEM 02/12/2009 at 18:09
    Joined on 26/11/2007
    Posts 5,088

    lester123:

    ...The situation here has really changed in the last 10 years and the UK has been training many teachers of their own. This has really changed the experiences of the OTT. ....The government doesn’t need us...

     

    Whilst it is no more than human nature to react personally to these circumstances, I feel that the implication of active xenophobia is unwarranted. It is not an anti- Australian thing. Nor an anti-you thing. Times change. As do circumstances. Moving abroad is of itself precarious in a world of nation states. When you are moving abroad, you must surely factor such considerations into your decision making.

     

    lester123:
    ...The restructuring of supply (using TAs and Cover Supervisors), the increasing use of agencies who pay cut price daily rates to teachers...

     

    This I would suggest is the core issue.

     

    This affects UK teachers just as it does foreigners. Indeed because there are so many more, some people might wish to argue that this affects UK teachers much more than it does foreigners, but you seem not to appreciate this.

     

     

     

    lester123:
    ... (in 2003 I was actually on the same daily rate of 120 pounds as I am on now---6 years later)...

     

    Quite by chance, I was speaking to someone  this week who told me that cattle prices in Ireland are currently at 1967 levels. You are surely aware of the world wide recession.

     

    [Plus obviously, as you yourself stated and as I  have agreed above, a pretence by the UK government, especially the English branch of it, that using cheaper unqualified staff is somehow driving up standards coupled with a pretence by the UK media and (unbelievably) by the parents that this is possible.]

     

    lester123:
    I really wish the Australian government made is equally hard for UK teachers who immigrate there

     

    Is your assertion that there is an open door policy correct? I don´t know. So obviously I am not saying that you are wrong. But I do wonder whether you are right?

     

    On reflection, my comments may well seem harsh. But nation states are a harsh reality. As you do appear to accept in your final paragraph.

     

     

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    Posted by: andr8w 03/12/2009 at 21:08
    Joined on 09/12/2008
    Posts 3

    Like you, I am an "African Refugee", having left South Africa for The UK in 2002. You have not mentioned what your subject area is, or perhaps you are a Primary School teacher? Anyway, I feel that without QTS, you won't find it easy to be employed. I managed to gain QTS through the Independent School that employs me. Teaching Agencies, I'm told, are no loger allowed to send Non-QTS teachers to State Schools? It's a difficult one; how about sending your CV to several agencies and make an attempt to do supply teaching until a firm job offer comes up? All the best!!!

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    Posted by: lester123 03/12/2009 at 22:19
    Joined on 22/10/2009
    Posts 5

    BigFrankEM:

    Whilst it is no more than human nature to react personally to these circumstances, I feel that the implication of active xenophobia is unwarranted.

     

     

    No I don't believe it is xenophobia at all. I actually agree with countries training their own teachers rather than poaching teachers from other countries, particularly less developed/less wealthy countries. I was just stating a fact that there is now a surplus of teachers in the UK and that this has been a fairly recent change.

     

    BigFrankEM:


    This affects UK teachers just as it does foreigners. Indeed because there are so many more, some people might wish to argue that this affects UK teachers much more than it does foreigners, but you seem not to appreciate this.

     

     I was replying to an OTT on the OTT forum, of course I wasn't going to address how these changes have affected UK teachers.

    Also I would like to say that although I am an OTT I am actually British and therefore am by no means anti-British. I just dislike a policy that applies arbitrary barriers to employment and refuses to judge and assess the capabilities of teachers on an individual basis.

    My personal experience is that although I have UK teaching experience I left the UK several years ago, at a time when OTTs only sought QTS for visa reasons. As I am British I never realised the value of going through the process and my school never even suggested it. I then left the UK for several years and returned to find that although I have extensive UK experience, I am unable to teach in state schools because of the ''4 year rule''. I find it difficult to understand how an inexperienced OTT teacher, fresh out of University, is able to teach in the UK with problems at all, while I am not.

    BigFrankEM:


     

    Is your assertion that there is an open door policy correct? I don´t know. So obviously I am not saying that you are wrong. But I do wonder whether you are right?

     

     

     

     


    It is a fairly open door at present, as (4 year university trained) teachers are assessed and judged on an individual basis without arbitrary barriers preventing employment (as long as you can meet other visa requirements).

     

    I do feel that you were a bit harsh. I am offering advice to OTT on an OTT forum, giving my own opinions as an OTT. To answer the original question: No the UK does not want OTTs and I would discourage OTTs from coming here.

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    Posted by: marcopront 04/12/2009 at 09:06
    Joined on 06/06/2006
    Posts 386

    lester123:
    It is a fairly open door at present, as (4 year university trained) teachers are assessed and judged on an individual basis without arbitrary barriers preventing employment (as long as you can meet other visa requirements).
     

    I'm going to quote from the teaching overseas forum.

    "I'm in Australia, it's really hard to get into the system here. It's taken me 6 months to have all of my qualifications assessed and I'm still waiting for supply clearance.

    Basically, the state system is impossible, so private schools are the way to go, however, these are all church schools, so that is a consideration."

    Which comes from this thread

    http://community.tes.co.uk/forums/p/116661/3134813.aspx#3134813

    There are other simiar comments.

     

    I am not on a campaign here against OTT. I wish you luck. I am UK trained and have done most of my teaching overseas and have had to have my documents certified so many times.

    I have never on the teaching overseas forum seen the comment xxxxx does not want UK trained teachers but it seems a common comment here. 

    I think every case is unique and should be assessed on it's own merits. Plenty of OTT do get jobs so maybe it is that some schools don't want OTT rather than the whole country.

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    Posted by: BigFrankEM 04/12/2009 at 19:04
    Joined on 26/11/2007
    Posts 5,088

    lester123:

     

    No I don't believe it is xenophobia at all. I actually agree with countries training their own teachers rather than poaching teachers from other countries, particularly less developed/less wealthy countries. I was just stating a fact that there is now a surplus of teachers in the UK and that this has been a fairly recent change.

     

    Notwithstanding the tendentious name choice of 2 earlier posters, neither of whom from their conveniently appended photo looks anything like the small number of unfortunate and downtrodden African refugees whom I have come across in real life, this is not a discussion about the issues highlighted. It is a discussion about voluntary economic migration. Lower middle class wasp workers who choose to exercise their skills in foreign climes.

    Especially apparently from UK to Oz. And vice versa.

     

    lester123:
    ...I was replying to an OTT on the OTT forum, of course I wasn't going to address how these changes have affected UK teachers

     

    Obviously you are free to address whatever isssues you see fit. Ditto not address others. As you see fit. But, I dispute the logic of you blithe affirmation "of course." I would suggest that the issue of how any measures being enforced in the UK affects UK teachers is a crucial part of the global picture within which the position of OTT can be analysed.

     

    To repeat my main point, teachers in the UK are under the cosh and hence OTT are too. Probably in spades. That is the nature of the beast vis a vis nation states in the real world.

     

    lester123:
    It is a fairly open door at present, as (4 year university trained) teachers are assessed and judged on an individual basis without arbitrary barriers preventing employment (as long as you can meet other visa requirements).

     

    Where should I begin with the above. all the points which I have highlighted are problematic. To me at least.

     

    To begin with, what proportion of the English teacher workforce, crammed as it is to the guanwales with exceptions, special cases and friends of the headteacher, meet the apparently simple condition of "4 year university trained", even if you accept the weak meaning of 3 year degree plus 1 year PGCE. Less than 50 per cent, I suggest. Much less perhaps. 

     

    [If you take the literal meaning, virtually nobody in English school education has a 4 year undergraduate degree. Scotland does honours degrees like that, but not England generally]

    So plenty would get a very dusty reply from Oz House it seems to me.

     

    But the central issue is the choice of the word "arbitrary", which for me initially  counts as meaningless but strongly pejorative, in the context.

     

    All rules are arbitrary to those who don t like them, of course. 30mph as no better than 29mph or 31mph as a speed limit. It is arbitrary in that sense. But it is not arbitrary in the sense that the named figure is universally applied [in the most unlikely circumstance of a visit to the courts.]

     

    Which elements of the rules for OTT are in your opinion "arbitrary" in the true sense of applied diffeently to different people of similar standing?

     

    Now for me arbitrary is "judging on an individual basis" with  implicitly no known criterion for the decision but plenty of scope for creative decision making. I have personally seen lots of that in English schools, but I always honestly thought that a place like Australia, which I have no direct personal knowledge of whatsoever, would have eschewed such practices.

     

     

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    Posted by: Tracey Adam 26/01/2010 at 14:33
    Joined on 03/09/2008
    Posts 38

     I have been doing supply cover since arriving in the UK just over 3 years ago from S.A. .  I, like africanrefugee, have applied to numerous advertised vacancies without so much as a hint of an interview.  In time, I built up some good relationships with the schools I did supply in. I thought I hit the jackpot when the school where I was doing a long term supply wanted to keep me on permanently...QTS!!! But the school was in special measures and because I am considered an unqualified teacher, I was not allowed to be employed by the school. Bizarrely, I was allowed to continue to teach there as a supply teacher but I decided it wasn't worth it.

    Last September while on another long term cover, I was offered a contract by the school to help me with my QTS starting January 2010.  During this time, I collected evidence of planning, assessments, etc, thinking it would count for something towards QTS. Boy, was I excited!!  I loved the school, the kids and had made some great friends...finally things were coming together for me.  But lo and behold, I soon discovered that because my contract was a job share for 2.5 days a week, it would take longer than the 2 terms required which meant that my '4 years' would be up halfway through the QTS programme.  I tried in vain to reason with the university that my previous experience should count for something, but because this was on supply and not on contract, did not..all my hard work for nothing!!  

    A lot of hard lessons have been learnt during this time and in hind sight I should have approached things differently.  But I knew no better...the whole system being quite overwhelming trying to get to grips with, etc...  The reality is that OTT are up against an unbending, unreasonable system.  At this moment, I don't have the 'fight' in me to start looking for an alternative job/career to teaching. I just hope that by this time next year I can look back on this difficult period of my life and see that all things do happen for a reason. 

    Good luck to all the OTT out there...I hope you are more successful in getting your QTS than I am.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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    Posted by: suziejellybean 30/01/2010 at 21:09
    Joined on 26/11/2009
    Posts 3
    I am Australian trained teacher and I came to the UK in January last year. I thought I was being smart by securing a position before I came, which included a provision in the contract that the school had to get me assessed for QTS. It has been a year now and I am still fighting with my school to have this condition acted on. I work the same duties as every other teacher in the school and am given no assistance to get QTS from my school. If I knew what it would be like here I never would have come. I don't want Australia to become like the UK, I am proud that we don't treat UK trained teachers like the indentured servants they treat us when we come here. My advice to anyone thinking about coming to teach in the UK is- don't.
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