I think the key here is labels! I have to say i feel that labelling chn has a negative impact in most cases.  The most important thing, surely, is that your child is making progress and working at the right level for her - not whether she is more able of g and t.

You say she won't do something if she thinks she will not get it right - in my experience that is not the way most very able chn operate. and it is certainly not something that should be encouraged or 'understood'  children need to make mistakes - otherwise how will they learn and equally important how will the teacher know where they are going wrong.

 i am sure her teacher is moving her forward at the rate she deems most suitable to her growing needs. i am sure s/he has been advised on the best approach.

i am not entirely sure what you are looking for here - reassurance that the label g and t or more able is suitable for your child or do you want to be told that these assessments are valuless? either way they are merely labels to be used to support teaching and not to get in the way of the best provision for each chn.

Sulas 

I'm not sure why you believe an assessment indicating a child's abillity level is either labelling or negative? Surely it is a tool to help identify what level a child is capable of working at and, in this case, what levels she has already completed. Because I know that what she is doing in maths at school is way below what she has already mastered, is not challenging her at all and is not teaching her anything new.

Is it labelling to say a child has dyslexia or an IQ of 85 or short term memory problems or a host of other issues that would cause them difficulty in accessing education? Why is identifying a child as gifted a negative label and why is it negative to talk about it or want it recognised by the school/teacher? If my child had a learning disability it would be perfectly acceptable to expect the school to meet her needs? Why should this not be the same. Why would this be considered an educationally damaging thing to do? I'm really baffled by this response although not surprised as I've been a teacher long enough to have seen plenty colleagues sneer at parents for suggesting their child was smarter than the teacher believed. As for my daughter, she tests well over 130 in the Kaufman ABC, a fact that places her in the gifted range. She placed in the 99th percentile. My question is whether or not I can accept and rely on this information since, having shared it with the school/teacher, I have basically been treated as if I have no clue and have delusions about her ability. Do they know something I do not about the validity of such tests which calls into question their accuracy? That is what I want to know. Is there evidence that suggests these assessments are not reliable?

What I was looking for was an indication as to whether psychological tests can over assess a child, as I know they can under assess. Is there a margin of error. Why is this 'label' important to me? Because the learning needs and methods of gifted children are different from non-gifted peers (which is a basic fact based on decades worth of research, not something I decided to make up). So no, this is not about what points she scores, no matter what anyone thinks. I couldn't give a rat's ass if she scores 145 or 135. Why do I want to know if she is gifted, if I can trust the psych report? So I can sit on my arse drinking coffee and boasting about how my little angel is oh so smart? No, it is so I have an informed idea of her needs. Why is it parents who want to know if their children are gifted are viewed with suspicion by teachers? Why are our motives questioned and why are we made to feel as if we are going to harm our children by putting 'negative labels' on them, when all we are doing is trying to get them an education which meets their needs - something every child deserves.  I have had a lot of sceptism from the school about her ability prior to getting the report done: and either I am wrong and the psychologist is wrong and I need to know that, or the school is wrong and it needs to recognise that because we can't both be right and I need to have confidence that her educational needs are being met. Gifted children have the right to an education that meets their needs, just as learning disabled children do. 

I absolutely agree that the most important thing is that my child is working at the right level and making progress. It is not about whether she can fit a label so I can print it on a t-shirt and wear it every day! My concern is that, despite the fact I have given them info on her level from independent sources including an ed. psych. evaluation, the school does not accept the findings.  It hardly matters if the "teacher is moving her forward at the rate she deems most suitable for her needs" if the teacher has totally underestimated what her needs are and is allowing her to basically underachieve and avoid challenges. Then again, what if the teacher is right? What's the alternative? That the ed. psych is wrong and has interpreted the assessment incorretly and over assessed her ability, and I am wrong about my daughter's needs. If this is the case then surely I need to know this because it would mean my expectations of the teacher are way off base, not to mention the fact I could end up becoming the 'pushy parent' I do not want to be.   

As for saying that very able children don't refuse work due to perfectionism or fear of failure, I would disagree since they are actually the group most likely to underachieve and this is frequently linked to fear of failure. There is a massive body of research on this phenomenon and it is something the psychologist identified and explained. Very able children do not have a 'one size fits all' attitude to work, and it is a myth that gifted children always want to show their giftedness or enjoy work. That's part of the reason why 50% of intellectually gifted children are not identified as such by their teachers.

"i am not entirely sure what you are looking for here - reassurance that the label g and t or more able is suitable for your child or do you want to be told that these assessments are valuless?" Not looking for either. Wasn't looking for such a condescending reply either frankly. I was looking for information from those with experience in G & T as to whether an assessment by an ed. psych. is fully trustworthy because that knowledge will help me determine what my child's needs are. Which my be the job of the school but is also my responsibility as the parent.

Hi NotinKansas

I can't really help with your original question, but I have a son who has been extremely able/gifted at maths from an early age, so I've been where you are now... I don't know what subject you teach, but in the course of his school career, (he is now Y11) I have trained and become a Maths teacher... which helps a bit.

When he was very young I wasn't really aware of the G&T terminology in schools (which may or may not correspond to the definition of Gifted as used by an Ed Psych), and have never had him tested, but it was pretty obvious to all that he loved maths, was extremely good at it and found it interesting. He has been at a state school throughout his education, and though his teachers have been aware of his interest and aptitude for the subject, he rarely got one-to-one attention... and I fully accepted that with 30ish in each class this was going to be the norm. On the other hand, teachers would sometimes give him an extra challenge/puzzle to get his teeth into while others were working on more basic things.

I did quite a lot of maths with him at home - in particular using the nRich website which has a lot of interesting and challenging maths for all ages. He often got me to email in his solutions, which meant he got his name mentioned in the following month, and feedback on his method, which he enjoyed. I would often arrange with his teachers to send in some nRich questions in his bookbag that he could do after completing the class work - in case the teacher did not have extra challenges handy!

When he was in Y5, his teacher happened to be the maths coordinator at the school (this may not have been a coincidence, I suspect), and she actually spent most of the year giving him really challenging work, in order to get him used to the idea that it was alright to get things wrong (it wasn't quite as harsh as I have written here - and she discussed it with me - I agreed that this would be most beneficial for him to progress in future). There also happened to be some masterclasses for primary students in the area that this teacher ensured he was invited to....

When he got to secondary school, the situation was pretty similar... sometimes teachers would give him a different book and suggest he looked at something more advanced while the class was doing something more straightforward, but they sensibly avoided advancing him to the following years work, since he'd be bored then instead...

Fortunately there were also a few more students closer to his level and so teachers would more often set a challenge to a small group of them. 

The secondary teachers also were careful to ensure that he at least followed the topics being covered by the rest of the class - and it was just as well - he found a few topics over the years where he had taught himself the basics at home and thought he knew them...and found some aspects he would otherwise have missed....   I am extremely grateful that now he is getting a small amount one-to-one teaching at school, and has been given the opportunity to take an FSMQ. I have to admit that for most of his secondary career, until very recently, he has refused to work with me on his maths, but he knows where on the web to look for extra puzzles - and we have lots of educational mathematics (Ian Stewart, Raymond Smullyan etc) books at home that he borrows and puzzles over (and now more advanced stuff too)!

I suspect that unless you go down the route of one-to-one teaching... your daughter may have to cope with challenging maths at home (and maybe sent into school as an extra) and being a little bored at school ... If you don't share her interest in Maths, then you may want to ask for ideas in the Maths forum (I don't know what your subject is...). Though the ideal might be that she would get focussed attention as a result of her needs and aptitude... in practice, it may not be possible.... though if she does get the "G&T" label, then if there are any masterclasses or other opportunities, she will hopefully be invited. (Oh, and if you have an NAGC group in your area, it would probably be good to get involved)

Sorry this has got a bit long, but hopefully it will help to know that gifted children can cope, even if the day to day teaching is not totally geared to their specific needs (and dealing with the perfectionism can be done a little later if needed!)

Another thought - Maths and Music often go together, so if she is not already learning an instrument, you might want to consider it... as an extra challenge in a different but related area...

Hope some of this helps...

Liz

notinKansas:

I'm not sure why you believe an assessment indicating a child's abillity level is either labelling or negative? 

 This might be off the point of the OP (incidentily, I've found G&T assessments about right for assessing IQ test aptitude,but more inaccurate the younger they are) but on the above point and without any offence intended. . .

There's been some interesting research led by Carol Dweck on this. (I found 'Mindsets' a good read.)  It seems that labelling can have the consequence of encouraging a 'fixed mindset' which can lead to unfortunate consequences like a learner not wanting to engage because they 'might get it wrong' or them thinking that ability is a gift which means they shouldn't have to try too hard! 

Thanks for the recent supportive comments and constructive suggestions. In fact she has begun to take some extra maths work from home in with her as lizziec suggested so I will see how that works out. On the positive side her teacher has supported this so I am hoping she is beginnig to show willing to work with me.

Stillrolling: I've also found the Carol Dweck book on Mindsets very, very useful, having been leant it by a friend who could also see how my daughter seemed very determined to avoid challenges or situations where she might fail. It's not recognising that your child is gifted that is the 'problem label' as such, but having a situation develop where the child's self esteem/self identity are wholly linked to their academic (or sporting/musical etc) ability: because if they fail (a test, competition, music exam etc.) then their whole sense of value can be destroyed, especially if they feel they are only valued for their talent. Therefore they will avoid any situation which might result in failure. This very much describes my child despite the fact she has not been pushed or labelled at home. I've been telling her for over 2 years it is ok to make mistakes, get things wrong, etc and nothing I say seems to make a difference. I am trying to get people to stop telling my daughter she is oh so clever (something every adult I know has probably done at some point!) as I firmly believe this has contributed to her reluctance or fear to try anything new at school. I do feel that she fears mistakes and will avoid doing something she is competent at even, if she thinks she may do a less than perfect job on it. I am trying to praise her instead for effort, perseverence, risk taking, improvement etc. rather than 'you did a great job and got it all right.' It is hard to get her to accept you can learn from mistakes and I am not good at spotting opportunities when they arise. I have been recommended to try some online subscription sites for Maths where she can work at her own pace and level and she seems to be enjoying these and she is happy to pursue music lessons. I wouldn't want the school to accelerate her by letting her gallop through the curriculum: I hope they can give her more breadth or depth, instead of just pushing her through the course faster.

flickadancer: Your son sounds very like my daughter who also refused to cooperate in some aspects of the testing initially and I was told that some areas likely underassessed her ability in consequence. My daughter can also be one of those who is the little lawyer. I can imagine her in the future becoming very irritating in the class setting keeping everyone right (including the teacher!)  if she does not have sufficient work to challenge her and keep her occupied. As for stubborn - in ways and to degrees i did not believe possible! It's so nice to know others have the same issues!!! And yes, she gravitates to the adults too and does not have the maturity or insight to understand why this may not be appropriate. This causes issues as well because others expect her to act in a certain way because of her language skills/advanced conversation topics etc. and forget that she is the age that she is. There is a clear discrepency between her cognitive ability and her emotional and physical age, and yet people seem surprised when she literally acts her age. **Sigh** she is definitely the hardest of my children to parent!

cg82 many thanks for your offer of further information. Would you share what would be reasonable to expect a school to do and what tips you have on ensuring that this is not a situation I find myself in each time she goes up to a new year group?