Conversion/top up for Further Education PGCE (QTLS) to PGCE (QTS) recognised

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Conversion/top up for Further Education PGCE (QTLS) to PGCE (QTS) recognised

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    Hello Everyone,

    I have recently found out I have passed my PGCE within Further Education giving me QTLS. However I naively thought it would be recognised the same as a PGCE (QTS) as I had lots of course work, teaching observations, teaching hours etc…this is what I was told. However, no formal exams were involved and I no this is a key difference.

    I had very little choice in doing this specific course, as it was a condition within my lecturing position. I was very lucky that the college paid and gave me extra time off for lecturers.

    My 3 questions are:

    1: Is there any way I can convert/top up my PGCE (QTLS) qualification to be recognised through the PGCE (QTS) status? Giving me a recognised qualification throughout education. I do not want to do the graduate teacher training program (not sure how long it takes) as I am working full time within FE and on a decent salary. I have a degree in Early Years.

    2: Also I do not understand why I can teach my subject area (child care and ICT) to a 14 year old in a college but not in a school...

    3: Also why can a primary/secondary PGCE be accepted within FE but not the other way around?

    Thank you for taking the time to read my (long) post

    Much appreciated
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    Hello Tesfan

    This issue has been discussed on this forum in many different threads both in the FE and secondary forums on many occasions now. However, I will endeavour to answer your questions as best I can from my own experience and research:

    1: Is there any way I can convert/top up my PGCE (QTLS) qualification to be recognised through the PGCE (QTS) status? Giving me a recognised qualification throughout education. I do not want to do the graduate teacher training program (not sure how long it takes) as I am working full time within FE and on a decent salary. I have a degree in Early Years.

    Answer: There are 2 choices:

    1. Do the GTP like other teachers without PGCEs

    2. Do the University of Glos. Assessment only based course to QTS. This is not a teacher training course, so is only suitable for you if you will have had at least 2 years teaching experience as an unqualifed teacher in a school or FE teacher by the time you are assessed for the course.

    I chose option 2 because I've been working part-time in FE for 3 years and worked as an academic tutor for 2 years before that, so I will be in my 4th year of teaching when I start the course (in October).

    2: Also I do not understand why I can teach my subject area (child care and ICT) to a 14 year old in a college but not in a school...

    Answer: Because the law is an ass and drafted by someone who wasn't thinking about the total mess that would be created when the leaving age gets raised to 18 and more schools offer 6th form courses without teachers who have the required specialised knowledge to teach specialist subjects, such as Psychology and Sociology. I share your frustration and anger over this grey area. Not only because I hate grey areas anyway but also because I'm regarded as un unqualified teacher in a school because my PGCE (post-compulsory) is not recognised, as it gives some secondary teachers the excuse to view me and other FE teachers as a second class citizen who shouldn't be employed in a school in favour of those who have QTS (we can't possibly understand how hard these people worked for their PGCEs), as we're just cheap labour for the school. Luckily, the only place where I have encountered this issue is on here and mainly by people who don't even understand what the term 'post compulsory' means, let alone how much work my PGCE involved. Anyway, I digress! The reason why we're not qualified to teach in school 6th forms (even though we are qualified and experienced teachers) is because our PGCEs do not have QTS. QTLS is NOT the same thing (although it might get you to the top of the unqualifed pay scale) because it is a sign of FE professional status, not school status and is therefore irrelevant. The law states that no teacher without QTS is allowed to be employed in a school (excluding those with relevant primary and secondary teaching qualifications before a certain date-1987, I think). However, unqualified professionals with specialist knowledge. E.g. FE teachers like us or a professional like an actor teaching performing arts may be employed in a school on a temporary basis ( for no more than a year) if a qualified teacher (one with QTS) cannot be found to teach the subject that we specalise in. Hence, some schools will pay us as unqualifed instructors and tell us to do a teacher training course by the end of the year, while others won't touch us with a barge pole. I.e. We're penalised a technicality.

    3: Also why can a primary/secondary PGCE be accepted within FE but not the other way around?

    Answer: I don't know about this one but I suspect that it's because until recently, FE teachers didn't need teaching qualifications. You therefore had 2 breeds of teachers. Those who had degrees etc but no teachign qualifications or those with secondary PGCEs who moved into FE. However, the government has now tightended things up in FE, so that FE teachers also need qualifications and also need to be registered with IfL (our equivalent to the GTC). At the moment, Primary and secondary teachers can switch to FE but need to tell IfL that they've come into FE, and I think that in September when QTLS comes out properly, they have do some kind of course to show that they can adapt their knowledge to FE.

    Hope I've answered your questions!





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    Hi Classwhisperer,

    Thank you for your detailed reply I really appreciate it. I no that these topics have been brought up several times but it’s difficult to find out the facts in one posting, so this clear feedback is very helpful. I hope others will take the time to read your posting.

    I had a quick look at the at the Glos option but I think it still means I would have to work in a school/secondary setting for a year and I don’t really want to change jobs (i thought that with my Early Childhood degree, FE PGCE and experience I would be able to do some kind of test in English, Maths and Science and that would be it....that would be to simple). Also another problem is that the FE PGCE is not subject baised but generic with elements of focus on your area.

    I think I am just going to ride it out and see what the government throws at us next before I make any big decisions…after all FE is where I want to be and they are happy to take me off the unqualified scale. I will ring Glos up on Monday and see what they say.

    I have worked with several lecturers that have done the primary option then jumped to FE and they have found it very difficult (though never admit it)...so I think further training throughout would make things transparent and it would stop the snobbery.

    Sounds like you had a bit of a rough ride along the way….I hope the government wakes up to the fact that all of this red tape and ever changing training is not only turning people like me off the profession but its also making me seriously consider working abroad!

    Thanks again

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    No problem Tesfan! Thanks for your support on this issue. I chose the AOB route because, like you, I have a full-time job, so I thought that it was better for the school to rearrange my timetable to include GCSE Sociology classes (it doesn't offer GCSE Psychology which is my degree subject-thank go, I've just finished an A-level intensive Sociology course which was taught by a sociology specialist! Fingers crossed that my results are good!), rather than lose me to 'placement schools'.

    By the way, I agree with your decision not to do a QTs course, as it is only necessary for you to obtain this if you decide to work in a school 6th form. For FE, you're qualified enough with what you already have! In fact, you're more qualified than I am because I don't have QTLS (I obtained my PGCE (post-compulsory) on 1st August 2005, so might have to go through a process of prfessional formation to get this, if I decide to return to FE. How complicated will that be?! I'll have both!). Also, you're right when you say that you should receive more pay because of your teacher training.

    Btw, having a generic qualification shouldn't put you at a disadvantage either, as it means that the colleges can make up your timetable with whatever subjects they want apart from the one that you have a degree in! Luckily, I haven't been put into this situation so far, although my new boss has warned me that this may happen to me in the unlikely event of the Psychology department collapsing. He suggested that I might be asked to teach physics but think he was joking.

    Btw, I have a tip for you. If you don't already have one and REALLY want to do something to go up the payscale in your next job, do a Masters in Teaching. Like the PGCE it's related to your job but at a higher level.

    Good luck whatever you decide to do!
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    PS. I certainly intend to do this or the Masters in post-compulsory education once I've settled into my new job and got QTS. After, my diploma in Sociology, of course (I don't want to do a full degree but want my sociology knowledge to be equivalent to that of my Psychology, as I want to teach both subjects properly instead of saying I can do one and offer the other)!
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    Hi Classwhiperer,

    I think that if you go back to FE you just need to inform the IFL? You may have to do additional training but no such thing has been offered/demanded of current primary/secondary/previously qualified FE PGCE professionals as yet, so you may get away with it for another couple of years.

    However, I think you will have to do 30 hours of continual professional development (CPD) every year once your in FE. I am trying to organise my placement for this week as it fell through…not as easy as I first thought as all settings seem to think I’m coming to inspect them!!! (I think some retrospective planning may have been done)

    I have differed my Masters for 3 years now; I am defiantly going to do it next year. I was going to do it in sociology and children’s rights with the IOE but I’m open to suggestions.

    A masters in teaching….mmm that sounds allot like what I have just been through with my teacher training and there are only so may times you can discuss resources, reflective practice and professionalism! Please correct (inform) me if there is more to it than that.

    I hope you get the time table you deserve in September its not fair working your socks off to then be given an uncertain future of teaching a similar subject. Even if your new boss was joking I don’t think he/she would like it very much is the shoe was on the other foot.

    So glad to see I’m not alone on these issues

    Keep me posted with you progress!
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    I didn't realise that you could also get to IOE. In that case, read this link and then tell me what you think of the course. I personally thought that there was more to it than just repeating the PGCE course (in fact, we can use this for credit on the masters course, so we'll probably end up skipping the bits we've already done). Failing that, there's a new course, the masters in post-compulsory education which I found very interesting. I can e-mail the details to you if you like. If so, post your e-mail address on this thread. :-)

    Here's the masters of teaching in PC ed link:

    http://ioewebserver.ioe.ac.uk/ioe/cms/get.asp?cid=882&882...

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    You would be snapped up in my school with or without QTS. We are really desparate for someone with your quals. As you would be teaching post compulsory anyway, it isn't any issue. Not looking for a job are you? It does have TLR attached.
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    Do you mean me or TESFAN?
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    we need someone with early years experience and quals plus teaching qual either QTS or post 16 for school sixth form.
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    Hi Classwhisperer,

    Had a look and they look very interesting…. the fees a little scary though. No timetables either! Oh what to do…..i want to do everything!
    I like the idea that I can use elements of my PGCE towards an MA.
    It would be great to get more information my e-mail is london100@hotmal.com
    Look forward to hearing from you
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    Hi Catmark2,

    Thanks for the posting. I have just started a new job based in London so I am no longer looking for work. Great to see that there are people out there that can look beyond the red tape and see that people just want to teach.

    Out of interest I no you mentioned TRL, but would my current FE salary be recognised or would I have to start at the bottom tear? Despite having an Early Years degree I have not taught as a teacher in primary. I would like to teach in primary/secondary in the future though: its always good to have your options open.

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    It depends on how much they want you and your experience. We have recently offered someone with the cert ed (FE) but no degree a salary that is above the top of the teacher's pay scale, but this included a TLR allowance - this person did have substantial teaching and management experience.
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    Thats good info to no. Hope you find someone soon-good luck!
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    sorry my e-mail is london100@love.co.uk x
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    Sorry classwhisperer third time lucky
    london100@live.co.uk
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    LOL! Unfortunately, I accidently deleted this info a few weeks ago. However, what I can do is give you the contact details for the people who are setting up the course (one of them was my PGCE tutor), so that you can ask them for more info. I'll e-mail these details now that I know I have the correct e-mail address for you.
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    You have mail!
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    Hi catmark,

    Where is this school?

    I have worked in FE for over 10 years and recently completed my DTTLS (the qual that replaced the FE PGCE).

    It seems common in FE to issue zero hour contracts which means they have no obligation to you if the numbers are down.

    This is now 3 years on the trot I have got  to September to find I have no job. However this time it was because they moved the module to January and didn't even bother to inform me properly.

    I have taught the 14-19 group and have considered moving into schools but when I have investigated this in the past it has been a full time course with no income.

    I had recently heard that they may be bringing out a conversion course and was trying to find some info which brought me to this forum.

    Although bits I'm picking up seems you get a school placement with unqualified pay?

    This would be of interest to me as it would probably be as much if not more in total than I am getting as a part-time lecturer.

    My specialisms are:

    Accountancy - in particular AAT which I believe is being taken into schools (AAT qualified)

    Business Studies including Management and Business Maths and Stats

    Economics

    IT - Sage Accounts, Microsoft Office

    I would happy to receive advice from anyone

    Thanks

    Josie

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    A number of points ; DTTLS DIDN'T replace PGCE - the Post Graduate Certificate in Education (PCE DTTLS) is alive and kicking - it is a university award that is recognised internationally as a teaching qualification - try going to Australia or NZ with a PTTLS, CTTLS or DTTLS  or a GTP and they will wonder what planet you came from, but they instantly recognise a PGCE

    A secomnadry school can employ someone on an unqualified scale , which can be up to £23K but the new acadamies can set their own pay scale and pay an Unqual+ rate.

     The Institute for Learning (IfL) is currently trying to gain parity of esteem between graduates teaching in both sectors and it appears that the current government has expressed some sympathy to the idea - but that will take time.

    But you must realise that teahcing in schoools is by statute an all graduate profession (yet again according to the current Government, entry requirements a 2:1 degree in future)

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