siddons_sara

 In that context, Alex's apps could be a very nice supplement.

 

Indeed. Alex's apps are basically practice, but there is nothing wrong in that at all. No-one would pretend that they or similar (MyMaths, MangaHigh, CoolMath and of course CyQuiz :) and similar) are going to save the world (though I did read a submission from MangaHigh to the Government tht sort of suggested that !).

What they do is provide good reinforcement and practice for those who need it. This is often underrated by trendies who write them off as 'drill and practice' and waffle about wonderful things done with iMovie or whatever without considering whether the children are learning anything much of the time.

It is better to have nice solid apps to practice on rather than bad ones that pretend to "teach" the subject.

Teaching, even in Mathematics, needs to be done by live bodies.

 

I'd disagree a little with PaulDG, I think the interaction of iPad could really bring many things alive, if the publishers can come up with something a bit creative. The iBooks textbooks I've seen in from the US publishers have been sadly underwhelming, sort of like mymaths and mathswatch in one package with a few multiple choice questions tagged on.

I think some have taken that Alex is proposing buying iPads solely on the back of his apps, which in fairness, I don't think is his intention at all.

It's a bit chicken and egg with iPads, at the moment there isn't that much to justify buying them but at the same time in order to get people to buy them there has to be some compelling software to run on them.

What do you mean by "something a bit creative" ?

An iPad is still a computer and it still thinks like a computer. It can't do anything a Desktop can't, it's just more portable (and a lot slower).

Anything involving comprehension, understanding, composition, interpretation is a non-starter. Even level adjustment beyond the trivial (say easier numbers in sums)

There's a reason everybody does Mathematics things - mymaths, mangahigh etc. It's possible to mechanise Maths, the more Mathsy side of Science, some Geography, MFL vocabulary and so on. Has really to be solid factual stuff. It's possible to mechanise the production of the product (er...)

Looking at MangaHigh most of it is the same (identical) runtime running subjects with screens flipping side to side that are functionally identical (with a few Flash games chucked in). Perhaps I've missed something.

I don't think Alex is anything other than straight about what his apps do ; same for me. That's fine ; he's not pretending they are going to save the world or anything :)

I actually think that's the way forward. Computers for reference and practice, multiple choice testing and the like. The rest is done by teachers. It is far better than believing in magic beans.

One of the other threads may be of interest. I suggested that the things that would bring significant change in maths were: Improved numeracy Teachers being facilitated to monitor, record individualised daily progress of class pupils (by technology) Pupils taking responsibility for their own learning I like to think I'm chipping away at some of these objectives. By the way, iPads can store a large amount of useful educational material (c.f. Laptop) and provide means of making the material accessible. There are issues with iPads e.g. Access to Flash, held by Apple's monopoly... However, the technology is widely available (if not in school then certainly at home) and I for one would rather it be used productively for education rather than a toy. There are many apps for productivity that sync storage to Dropbox etc. that allow integration of file formats and annotation that make it an efficient learner's tool. In a meeting re mobile technology today the manager's eyes lit up hen he was told that one purchase of an app could be synchronised to a whole college set of devices (Apple's policy). It is chicken and egg and I don't know how it will pan (sic) out. Written on my iPad...

ALEXWATT

and I for one would rather it be used productively for education rather than a toy.

But the evidence is that it won't be used in the way you envisage.  Kids have mobile phones with internet access.  Do they use them for looking up useful stuff?  No, they arse about on Facespace.  Do they use the "filofax" facilities (available on even the most basic mobiles) for noting down coursework dates etc?  No, most don't even know how to access these services.  iPads are probably lovely, but they are pointless in the classroom.

.

cyolba, sounding more like a technophobe every day   :)

cyolba

ALEXWATT

and I for one would rather it be used productively for education rather than a toy.

But the evidence is that it won't be used in the way you envisage.  Kids have mobile phones with internet access.  Do they use them for looking up useful stuff?  No, they arse about on Facespace.  Do they use the "filofax" facilities (available on even the most basic mobiles) for noting down coursework dates etc?  No, most don't even know how to access these services.  iPads are probably lovely, but they are pointless in the classroom.

.

cyolba, sounding more like a technophobe every day   :)

I'd agree with at least some of this. I would feel deeply uneasy about allowing iPhones in the class, especially with regard to issues such as cyber bullying.

There have been iPhone revision apps around for the past 3 years or so. I checked with my classes how many people had them and out of three groups there were only two pupils with them. I'd noticed that MathsWatch was now available as an app but most still preferred to buy the CD.

Regarding the earlier comment about publishers being a bit more creative, I'd say there are certainly a lot of similarities between iOS devices and traditional PCs but also some significant differences, if the tech folk can't spot those then they won't progress very far with what they are doing.

None of the above is intended in any way to do down what Alex is doing, I do wish him the best of luck. I don't think he is asking much in terms of cash even for the paid apps, not when schools happily pay the £400 MyMaths tax every year without even a thought.

siddons_sara

None of the above is intended in any way to do down what Alex is doing, I do wish him the best of luck. I don't think he is asking much in terms of cash even for the paid apps, not when schools happily pay the £400 MyMaths tax every year without even a thought.

 

 

Here is a thought..

If something like MyMaths was put in software - no interactive games, no marking, no booster packs, just the lessons and a list of activities, something that could be uploaded into a VLE of school sysetm.

Pupils would then access the lesson and then copy down the questions. They would go away and do the work, which the teacher would mark.

Would cost a lot less. It seems to be the goal to make everything easier for teachers but I really do think marking in maths has to be the teacher. I have tried MyMaths but I do not know where my pupils have gone wrong in their working out.

gogojonny,

...trying to combine what you suggest and the thread topic (i.e. iPads in the classroom).

The "MyMaths" 'worksheets' could be downloaded to pupil iPads (i.e. questions) wirelessly, on instruction from the teacher (i.e. at the appropriate time). Pupils then annotate (e.g. using iAnnotate) the worksheets with their answers and workings. Answers would then be returned wirelessly to teacher for marking. Feedback could then be sent back to pupils (wirelessly).

The teachers would then have a permanent record of all their pupils' work/answers in their iPad. Pupils' work would be time-stamped and readily available for review at any future point in time (e.g. for recording, parent evenings, etc.).

Being a paperless exercise, cost savings may be possible long term.

ALEXWATT

gogojonny,

...trying to combine what you suggest and the thread topic (i.e. iPads in the classroom).

The "MyMaths" 'worksheets' could be downloaded to pupil iPads (i.e. questions) wirelessly, on instruction from the teacher (i.e. at the appropriate time). Pupils then annotate (e.g. using iAnnotate) the worksheets with their answers and workings. Answers would then be returned wirelessly to teacher for marking. Feedback could then be sent back to pupils (wirelessly).

The teachers would then have a permanent record of all their pupils' work/answers in their iPad. Pupils' work would be time-stamped and readily available for review at any future point in time (e.g. for recording, parent evenings, etc.).

Being a paperless exercise, cost savings may be possible long term.

None of which could be done with the outmoded and frankly abusive pairing of textbook and exercise book.

Cost of Whypad = £300+  Cost of textbook = £15.  Cost of exercise book = 15p.  As the yanks like to say:  "Do the Math!"

.

cyolba, still waiting for a use for these toys     :)

gogojonny

If something like MyMaths was put in software - no interactive games, no marking, no booster packs, just the lessons and a list of activities, something that could be uploaded into a VLE of school sysetm.

Pupils would then access the lesson and then copy down the questions. They would go away and do the work, which the teacher would mark.

Would cost a lot less. It seems to be the goal to make everything easier for teachers but I really do think marking in maths has to be the teacher. I have tried MyMaths but I do not know where my pupils have gone wrong in their working out.

 

Actually this isn't technically difficult. MyMaths is Flash which you can wrap to fit in SCORM. 

The problem is your last bit.  "Knowing where your pupils has gone wrong" requires some understanding of thought processes.

AFAICS most MyMaths stuff (and similar, not excluding my own work or Alex's) doesn't really teach but simply allows practice.

MyMaths sort of has an "animated textbook" which leads on to questions and answers (apparently always the same questions and answers !) but if you get the answer wrong it doesn't really breakdown into the why or why not. You can go back and look at the material but it can't really do this automatically except in a trivial fashion. That sort of thing requires a Maths teacher (which I guess you are !).

SCORM allows two kinds of reporting (this is the VLE format). The first is a straight score - 60% on a test say. Most systems use this : CyQuiz, ContentGenerator and so on. This allows you to do two things - identify those struggling and to track progress over time.

The other thing is tracking interactions. What this means in practice, despite the fancy name, is that you can record the individual questions - whether the pupil got Q1, Q2 right.

These are probably both too extreme.  The first doesn't give enough detail, the second gives too much.

Incidentally, CyQuiz now allows you to create SCORM packages.  And it's free :)

MyMaths costing isn't down to its actual value but what they think they can get away with IMO.

A lot of educational software is overpriced cr*p, including my particular bete noires, Flowol and Logicator. £350 for a site license. I wrote something similar in a couple of days. Literally.

 

 

cyolba

None of which could be done with the outmoded and frankly abusive pairing of textbook and exercise book.

Cost of Whypad = £300+  Cost of textbook = £15.  Cost of exercise book = 15p.  As the yanks like to say:  "Do the Math!"

 

Plus an iPad is horribly locked up.

People will not develop for it in a big scale because iPad development means Objective C++ - which means it is only for iPad.

So if you wrote MyMaths for iPad you would have to rewrite the whole thing (MyMaths are probably praying Apple have a change of heart and allow Flash - they won't because it destroys the raison d'etre, the App store).

The rapidly increasing Android Tablets would need another rewrite (Android will grow and grow especially if Google brand one rather like they have with phones, which is partially limited because phone costs are attached to the contract costs

This matters less with phones because phone apps tend to be specifically designed for phones. iPad apps are designed more along the lines of PC apps. CyQuiz works nicely on the newer iPhones especially, but it is difficult to use because there are too many screen details (compare with Alex's purpose design app which has far fewer) and they easily get lost on a screen that's only three inches big.  (It's like trying to play Pacman on a phone - it's perfectly capable of it but it's just too small)

If you translated them both to an iPad Alex's would have huge buttons occupying big chunks of the screen and mine looks right. If people are designing for the PC market then they are going to target the much bigger PC/Windows/iMac group. Virtually everyone has a Windows PC or an iMac in their house. The iPad penetration is much lower.

CyQuiz gets round it because it is written for HTML 5/Javascript (I discovered it works on the Wii last week :) ). This has the unfortunate side effect that all apps are silent, because Apple have deliberately stopped browser sound from working, which means that the Spelling games have to adopt a Flashcard (view/hide/copy) approach. (lots more ranting about Microsoft and Apple's behaviour).

cyolba

cyolba, still waiting for a use for these toys     :)

There are some, especially in SEN. Whether this justifies buying an iPad rather than a laptop is something of a moot point. As you way, the money could be better spent.

 

ALEXWATT

The "MyMaths" 'worksheets' could be downloaded to pupil iPads (i.e. questions) wirelessly, on instruction from the teacher (i.e. at the appropriate time). Pupils then annotate (e.g. using iAnnotate) the worksheets with their answers and workings. Answers would then be returned wirelessly to teacher for marking. Feedback could then be sent back to pupils (wirelessly).

The teachers would then have a permanent record of all their pupils' work/answers in their iPad. Pupils' work would be time-stamped and readily available for review at any future point in time (e.g. for recording, parent evenings, etc.).

Being a paperless exercise, cost savings may be possible long term.

 

Well, there's nothing here that you couldn't do with the old purple machine (Banda ?) that was the main choice when I was a rookie and a filing cabinet. Apart from the paperless office - and you have the costs of the iPads and the costs of maintenance. The teacher still has to hand mark it.

It's arguably easier to mark a stack of paperwork than have to go through downloading it to another device.

 

 

cyquiz

Plus an iPad is horribly locked up.

People will not develop for it in a big scale because iPad development means Objective C++ - which means it is only for iPad.

So if you wrote MyMaths for iPad you would have to rewrite the whole thing (MyMaths are probably praying Apple have a change of heart and allow Flash - they won't because it destroys the raison d'etre, the App store).

The rapidly increasing Android Tablets would need another rewrite (Android will grow and grow especially if Google brand one rather like they have with phones, which is partially limited because phone costs are attached to the contract costs

This matters less with phones because phone apps tend to be specifically designed for phones. iPad apps are designed more along the lines of PC apps. CyQuiz works nicely on the newer iPhones especially, but it is difficult to use because there are too many screen details (compare with Alex's purpose design app which has far fewer) and they easily get lost on a screen that's only three inches big.  (It's like trying to play Pacman on a phone - it's perfectly capable of it but it's just too small)

If you translated them both to an iPad Alex's would have huge buttons occupying big chunks of the screen and mine looks right. If people are designing for the PC market then they are going to target the much bigger PC/Windows/iMac group. Virtually everyone has a Windows PC or an iMac in their house. The iPad penetration is much lower.

CyQuiz gets round it because it is written for HTML 5/Javascript (I discovered it works on the Wii last week :) ). This has the unfortunate side effect that all apps are silent, because Apple have deliberately stopped browser sound from working, which means that the Spelling games have to adopt a Flashcard (view/hide/copy) approach. (lots more ranting about Microsoft and Apple's behaviour).

Hi CyQuiz,

I like what you are trying to do, but I have found an issue with your HTML5. I opened up one of your quizzes in Chrome here:

http://www.cyquiz.com/Quizzes/french_11_desaccidentsdelaroute_mdl/WordMunch.html

Then, I did right-click > inspect element > scripts > quiz.js, and it gave me the following.

 

var $QuizData = function() { return {"q1": "changer de file","a1": "to change lane","q2": "faire demi-tour","a2": "to turn around","q3": "freiner","a3": "to brake","q4": "griller le feu","a4": "to jump the lights","q5": "heurter","a5": "to hit / bump","q6": "recular","a6": "to reverse","q7": "signaler","a7": "to indicate","q8": "un bless^^(233)","a8": "an injured (person)","q9": "un virage","a9": "a bend","q10": "virer","a10": "to swerve","q11": "brusquement","a11": "sharply","q12": "au rond-point","a12": "at the round-about","q13": "une voiture","a13": "a car","q14": "un camion","a14": "a truck","q15": "un arbre","a15": "a tree","q16": "attrendre","a16": "to wait","qinfo": "KS4:French","qdescr": "Des accidents de la route","qauthor": "Written by Andrew Balaam","smallgfx": "1","qshort": "french_11_desaccidentsdelaroute_mdl"};};

 Unfortunately, it seems that the person doing the practice on a PC or Mac has full access to the answers!!!! Is there any way around this?

 

 

In response to iPad stuff having to be developed using Objective C++...

I have used Flash Professional to develop apps: the application contains the Flash environment at a cost of about 4MB and then the SWF runs within that.

So in theory MyMaths could rework their stuff for the iPad - I would not recommend it though as there will be performance, compatability, and functionality issues.

cas38

var $QuizData = function() { return {"q1": "changer de file","a1": "to change lane","q2": "faire demi-tour","a2": "to turn around","q3": "freiner","a3": "to brake","q4": "griller le feu","a4": "to jump the lights","q5": "heurter","a5": "to hit / bump","q6": "recular","a6": "to reverse","q7": "signaler","a7": "to indicate","q8": "un bless^^(233)","a8": "an injured (person)","q9": "un virage","a9": "a bend","q10": "virer","a10": "to swerve","q11": "brusquement","a11": "sharply","q12": "au rond-point","a12": "at the round-about","q13": "une voiture","a13": "a car","q14": "un camion","a14": "a truck","q15": "un arbre","a15": "a tree","q16": "attrendre","a16": "to wait","qinfo": "KS4:French","qdescr": "Des accidents de la route","qauthor": "Written by Andrew Balaam","smallgfx": "1","qshort": "french_11_desaccidentsdelaroute_mdl"};};

 Unfortunately, it seems that the person doing the practice on a PC or Mac has full access to the answers!!!! Is there any way around this?

 

Yep.

For a fair while it was encrypted and I took it out and didn't put it back.  Many school browsers are locked down so people can't tinker like that, having said that I think you are right.

I won't do it now though, because it will involve rebuilding all the quizzes on the website. This isn't difficult, but I'll do it this evening just in case I disrupt someone using it. I try not to make changes outside school hours unless it's absolutely necessary.

It will be completely transparent so it won't affect anything other than increasing the loading time fractionally - not enough to notice.

It'll look like "%%SFRNTDo8cD5Ib3cgbWFueSBtPH.....". It's still possible to decode if you know what you are doing. But it's much more difficult and anyone capable of it can probably answer the questions anyway :)

Thanks, Paul.

 

 

 .... now changed back.

'Not many people will develop for the iPad' LOL!

gogojonny

siddons_sara

None of the above is intended in any way to do down what Alex is doing, I do wish him the best of luck. I don't think he is asking much in terms of cash even for the paid apps, not when schools happily pay the £400 MyMaths tax every year without even a thought.

 

 

Here is a thought..

If something like MyMaths was put in software - no interactive games, no marking, no booster packs, just the lessons and a list of activities, something that could be uploaded into a VLE of school sysetm.

Pupils would then access the lesson and then copy down the questions. They would go away and do the work, which the teacher would mark.

Would cost a lot less. It seems to be the goal to make everything easier for teachers but I really do think marking in maths has to be the teacher. I have tried MyMaths but I do not know where my pupils have gone wrong in their working out.

I'm not a business person but this would go against the grain of the what the vast majority of companies are doing. Ten ticks sold their resources at a 'one off' price and managed to sell everywhere once. Nice money but how much better to sell everywhere, every year.

I think someone commented on here before that developing maths resources is very time consuming and there's always the danger of making something people don't actually want. I think you would have a hard sell dragging people away from MyMaths, people like what they know and know what they like.

I'm also not sure how what you are suggesting would be significantly different from websites like BiteSize/Maths is Fun.

By all means have a go at such a product but I can't see how it's going to add much value.

Beluga Learning will be entirely free :o)

That looks like a tremendous resource Tandy, thanks for sharing!

It must have cost a fortune in terms of time and resources to develop that, and you are giving it all for free?