For discussion on teacher pay and conditions join the TES Pay and Conditions group. You’ll find chat and advice on pay scales, TLRs, threshold pay, Golden Hellos, pensions, retirement and much more.
As the title says - I thought after two years continuous service I had permanent rights. That is, if redundancies are made, I will be in the mix. A colleague says it's three years. Does anyone know?
It's exactly 2 years - just happened to me so I know. The law says redundancy payment is 'two years and over'. You don't have exactly the same rights as permanent staff, your job can still end, but if it does you are entitled to a redundancy payment.
really there is no such thing as a perminent contract, it should be called an open end contract, as it's all about end rights.
Phatsals: you said that my job can still end. If the teaching staff will be reduced at my school, does this mean that I will be the one to go or will I be treated like a permanent member of staff. As I understand it, in a redundancy situation, staff would be allocated points according to responsibilities etc so that redundancies are made on an objective basis. Would I be treated like this or would it just be bye?
Its quite a complex area, with recent changes in the law. Take a look at the ATL booklet to find out where you stand.
It depends on the reason for your job being contract. What could happen is a restructuring where your post disappears meaning the post isn't permanent thus you can be exited. There is a lot of debate on fixed v permanent contracts but the reality is that if you are working for someone manipulative your post can disappear and there is nothing you can do.
I took this up with the NUT at regional level. Yes procedure has to be followed but if it's your post that has gone you have to decide if it's a fight you can win or if you should take the money - I took the money along with the bitter taste. At least that was better than the original offer of nothing. There should be staff consultation about staff restructure, but in a small school this may not happen. Are you secondary or primary?
If you can, get your hands on the school policy for dismissal and find out why your job is contract - are you covering for an absent teacher, ie the role is permanent, though you may not be, find out all the background facts and most of all be prepared. Find out if the school has a policy on redundancy, if they do get your hands on a copy.
Well 2 years service may be the consideration for redundancy payments, but you have automatic right of contract renewal and same employment rights as a permanent employee after serving temp contracts exceeding 1 year. At 4 years you would automatically become a permanent employee, but until then you can only be fairly dismissed if "the tunnel is complete", the bridge is now built", "the software has been delivered", etc. Your rights include appropriate training and same consideration as anyone else to treatment in selection for redundancy. In fact hiring temporary staff for over one year is considered by many organisations to be less preferable to permanent recruitment for these very reasons.
I append quotes from
but there is plenty of info on the net including some interesting NHS HR info.
The non-renewal of a fixed-term contract is in law a dismissal for all employmentprotection purposes. Providing you have one year’s continuous employment, you havethe right not to be unfairly dismissed and to make a complaint of unfair dismissal if youremployer fails to renew your contract without giving you a fair reason.A “fair” dismissal would be, for example, on the return of the substantive post holder orthe completion of the job for which the contract was given. Dismissal might be unfair ifyour contract was not renewed but another person was appointed to do the job onanother fixed-term contract.Dismissal due to redundancy will be unfair if the selection for redundancy was solely onthe basis of the contract being fixed term or temporary. Non-renewal of a fixed-termcontract due to redundancy may also be unfair dismissal in other circumstances.Dismissal on grounds of redundancy may be unfair if consultation procedures were notcomplied with, the basis for selection was discriminatory or the employer failed toconsider alternative employment for the person involved.
Thanks for all the replies. You have been incredibly helpful. I'm in primary, and there may/may not be restructuring at the end of the year and I wanted to know where I stood vis-a-vis permanent staff. Wasn't sure whether I needed to be looking for a job now or whether I would be able to stand with other staff on redundancy grounds.
Having contacted ACAS and solicitors and Unions etc I'm pretty clued up on Fixed Term contracts. The right not to be 'Unfairly Dismissed' actually means by the in house Dismissal policy, in other words if the school has followed their policy then it is fair. There is as yet no body of case law since the changes in legislation in April. The rules that were in place then regarding consultation for Fixed Term Contracts no longer apply as they were considered a hindrance.
Since the change in legislation on Fixed Term Contracts you no longer have a need to be consulted 6 months beforehand that you contract will not be renewed. That is taken as a given. What you need to know is the date you can expect to be notified of its renewal (this is not enshrined in law). Permanent staff can expect to know by Feb half term.
Remember it's not YOU who is being made redundant, it's the post and on that basis you CAN'T be selected for redundancy. Restructuring however is another matter, then the post can be made redundanct.
Don't jump ship yet, get hold of the policies, find out the LEAs policy on redundancy payment and make sure that if you are selected you get your entitlement.
The only time your contract can be automatically made permanent is if it's been renewed dmor than once and has gone on for 4 years although you can request permanency at any time. This doesn't apply if your job is to fill a project that lasts that long.
I know more and can go into great detail. I am VERY well informed on this - ask if you need more.
phatsals I know more and can go into great detail. I am VERY well informed on this - ask if you need more.
Thanks for the information. I'll wait and see at the moment. I don't want to give any more details on the forum as this could then start to identify me. I appreciate your help.
Irulan, you could PM phatsals if you don't want to put any further (and possibly identifying) information on the forum.
Good luck x
kingfisherblue Irulan, you could PM phatsals if you don't want to put any further (and possibly identifying) information on the forum. Good luck x
Thanks for that, kingfisherblue. Might well do but just lying low at the moment. Sorry I took so long getting back to you but just getting a bit bogged down at the moment.
Top of page
TES Editorial © 2012 TSL Education Ltd. All pages of the Website are
reproduce, duplicate, copy, sell, resell or exploit any material on the
Website for any commercial purposes. TSL Education Ltd Registered in England (No 02017289) at 26 Red Lion Square, London, WC1R 4HQ