CFE asks us to assess the pupils achievement in the E's and O's. If you have piece of work which shows a pupil can do 3-01a (or whatever) then you have evidence of that. If you use a summative assessment and a cutoff score, you'd still have to look at what was actually achieved in the test in order to decide. For example, 2 scenarios: 1 pupil gets 8 out of 10, but gets off to a poor start, getting the easy questions at the start wrong in his hast to get started. 2. Pupil gets the 8 easy questions right, but the 2 difficult questions at the end wrong. Both would have 8 out of 10, but only one managed the difficult questions - they both pass? Seems unfair.

Yip, this raises more questions than it answers though.  How are you assessing?

By giving the pupils a task and recording their success at the experiences involved in it.

Ok how are you recording, do you have a profile of some sort? I think part of the problem is that as the outcomes are so skills based we don't really know what level 3/4 looks and sounds like. We had arrived at a shared understanding of it as a department through moderation etc but after attending a recent cpd I think we may have interpreted wrongly. There is also not enough advice as to how we should be recording and evidencing progress. A lot of the marking in my subject is not a straightforward mark out of 20 for example so it's very difficult to arrive at some sort of standardised approach.

champagnecharlie

Ok how are you recording, do you have a profile of some sort?

yes. A profile booklet which records each successful attempt at an outcome. 

I think part of the problem is that as the outcomes are so skills based we don't really know what level 3/4 looks and sounds like. We had arrived at a shared understanding of it as a department through moderation etc but after attending a recent cpd I think we may have interpreted wrongly.

Part of the moderation process is identifying good practice and building on that as well as identifying mistakes and correcting them. 

There is also not enough advice as to how we should be recording and evidencing progress.

Agreed. But it's becoming much clearer that the teacher should be recording progress in each outcome. Evidencing is difficult - assessment jotter, taking photo's of pupil work, video or sound clips have all been suggested. Most of my assessments are written in an assessment jotter, with occasional assessments done on posters, powerpoints etc.

 

 A lot of the marking in my subject is not a straightforward mark out of 20 for example so it's very difficult to arrive at some sort of standardised approach.

Again, I agree. It's difficult trying to do this without a nationally agreed standard. If you decide to not mark out of 20 but agree on some other way then that will be fine.Without knowing your subject, I can't give an example, but for maths, for example, if I give a set of 10 questions and the last 2 questions were at the level required to demonstrate success, then I could still give a mark out of 10, but also have criteria to determine success at the level - ie last 2 questions correct then pass.

 

 

CheesyWotsits

Part of the moderation process is identifying good practice and building on that as well as identifying mistakes and correcting them. 

When is this moderation supposed to take place?  We have very little time to be honest.  We are trying to dedicate DM's to moderation but it is very difficult with all the other pressures.  When do others fit it in?

 

CheesyWotsits

A profile booklet which records each successful attempt at an outcome.

I find this cumbersome and time consuming.  My time would be better spent creating more original and relevant resources.  Is anyone doing anything different?

 I'd rather not reveal my subject as I don't want to be identified - suffice to say it's not numerical or scientific. 

champagnecharlie

When is this moderation supposed to take place?  We have very little time to be honest.  We are trying to dedicate DM's to moderation but it is very difficult with all the other pressures.  When do others fit it in?

I try to allow 1 to 2 hours per term for moderation. I don;t find this to be too intrusive, and we manage to identify weak areas pretty quickly.

 

I find this cumbersome and time consuming.  My time would be better spent creating more original and relevant resources. 

I don't find it time consuming, as it's filled in by the pupils as part of them taking responsibility for their learning.

 

CheesyWotsits

I don't find it time consuming, as it's filled in by the pupils as part of them taking responsibility for their learning.

We also have profiles which pupils complete but I still find them quite time consuming - I would really rather pupils were learning than filling in a form!  I'm not convinced this is the best way for them to reflect on their learning.

I don't think 1-2 hours per term would be enough for moderation but maybe I'm wrong.   

champagnecharlie

We also have profiles which pupils complete but I still find them quite time consuming - I would really rather pupils were learning than filling in a form! 

Takes my pupils 10 seconds to record success on their forms. Most of that is spent finding the right page. You're just looking for them to record they've done it, not write an essay about it - if it's anything more than a tick, then it might be worth rethinking your form.

I'm not convinced this is the best way for them to reflect on their learning.

The reflection comes before the recording. The recording simply ticks that they've had success.

I don't think 1-2 hours per term would be enough for moderation but maybe I'm wrong.   

What do you need to achieve through moderation? A discussion about what assessments have been done. Which ones were robust? How were the outcomes assessed? How did the pupils reflect on their learning? Are all teachers assessing to the same standard? What will we do better next time? How will we ensure we do it better next time? This can be achieved in a couple of hours to cover assessments done in 1 term. Remember you don't have to moderate everything all the time. If there are 4 meetings over the year, you may choose to focus on a particular strand, or level for each meeting.

The main objective of the moderation would be to make sure we all have a shared understanding of what the levels look like as at this stage we have so little to go on. Do you keep a copy of pupils profile and do they have one also? At the moment we are working with both but again that is a lot of paper. If I have 7 classes with an average of 25 pupils that's 175 sheets just for my copies!!

champagnecharlie

Do you keep a copy of pupils profile and do they have one also? At the moment we are working with both but again that is a lot of paper. If I have 7 classes with an average of 25 pupils that's 175 sheets just for my copies!!

The pupils keep a paper copy which contains the unpacked outcomes. I keep an electronic copy of the same thing to record that the outcomes have been taught and assessed. Once or twice a term, I take the profiles home and input the information from the profile sheet into a spreadsheet so i can track their progress. This takes about an hour for each class. So, only one paper copy, everything else is electronic.

CheesyWotsits

is takes about an hour for each class. So, only one paper copy, everything else is electronic.

Electronic or paper it is still two copies of the same thing!!

Not really. The pupils record progress in the unpacked outcomes, whereas i record progress in the packed outcomes. You asked how I was assessing and recording, but do you really want to know?

Yes.  Do you have a definition of 'packed' and 'unpacked'?  I am seriously trying not to freak out.  Just looked at the final specs for Nat 4/5 and Higher.  Would really have been much more useful if we had had these 3 years ago! 

Packed is vague - covers a lot of skills/knowledge. Unpacked is more specifically the skills and knowledge that cover the vague outcome.

simple example: I can communicate with my friends.

unpacked may be:

I can use a phone to call someone

I can write an e-mail

I can use a mobile phone to text someone.

CheesyWotsits

Packed is vague - covers a lot of skills/knowledge. Unpacked is more specifically the skills and knowledge that cover the vague outcome.

Just out of curiosity, cheesy---how was the unpacking done and by whom? At the LA level, cluster level, school level, teacher level...? We were told to avoid unpacking, but I can't see how to assess in any real way without something more concrete to go on. The E's and O's are all cotton wool.

For my subject, I know of 3 authorities that have unpacked the outcomes. I picked one and used it. I don;t see how you can understand what's to be taught or assessed unless you break the vague outcomes into skills and knowledge which can be assessed. I think it's bad advice to not unpack the outcomes for this reason. If anyone asks I'll explain why.

I think it's just so unfortunate we are being put in this position.  I feel a bit like someone has put me in a room with a blinfold on!  And NOT in a kinky way!!

CheesyWotsits

I don;t see how you can understand what's to be taught or assessed unless you break the vague outcomes into skills and knowledge which can be assessed.

Absolutely agree with you on this. Am at wits' end with CfE vagueness and thinking of doing just as you have done, borrowing and using stuff from other LAs and damn the torpedoes.