cochrane1964

Worked somewhere where the Chaplain did an assembly and explained how he spent a lovely day at the neighbouring RC establishment. he got booed. Then he explained that he'd invited the priest into our school for Christian Fellowship. Headteacher said he'd never had so many complaints and phone calls. The Catholic pupils were upset, some in tears.

What disciplinary action was taken against those whose behaviour left some of the Catholic pupils in tears?

In 2008 Alex Salmond was the lead speaker at the Cardinal Winning Lecture at Glasgow University where he stated that,

In 2008 Alex Salmond was the lead speaker at the Cardinal Winning Lecture at Glasgow University where he stated that,

In 2008 Alex Salmond was the guest speaker at the Cardinal Winning Lecture in Glasgow University. He stated that, "All faith-based schools play a significant role in helping to shape, inspire and strengthen our young people to learn. It's time to celebrate their contribution to Scottish education. Their diversity and distinctiveness allow our students and educators to share, to build, and to hope." He seemed very much pro denominational schools at the important part they play in Scotland's education system. As with any party i'm sure there are people within the SNP who disagree but i can't see the party supporting this policy. http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2008/02/04090304

mckerrall

In 2008 Alex Salmond seemed very much pro denominational schools.

You wouldn't really expect Eck to say anything different at such a lecture though?

Those of us who favour an end to segregating children will be hoping his commitment to denominational schools is similar to his commitment to lower class sizes.

Almost two-thirds of SNP members in this survey thought that separate Catholic schools should be phased out.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/battle_lines_being_drawn_by_snp_members_over_key_alex_salmond_policies_1_2112801

socrates82

mckerrall

In 2008 Alex Salmond seemed very much pro denominational schools.

You wouldn't really expect Eck to say anything different at such a lecture though?

Those of us who favour an end to segregating children will be hoping his commitment to denominational schools is similar to his commitment to lower class sizes.

Almost two-thirds of SNP members in this survey thought that separate Catholic schools should be phased out.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/battle_lines_being_drawn_by_snp_members_over_key_alex_salmond_policies_1_2112801

Please spell out your guarantees that Catholic children, Catholic teachers and the Catholic religon would get fair play in non-denominational schools.

Aber1991

Please spell out your guarantees that Catholic children, Catholic teachers and the Catholic religon would get fair play in non-denominational schools.

I am not in a position to guarantee anything.

However, "fair play" is something I'd like to see with a switch to truly religiously-neutral schools:

Fair Play ... for all children, who should be informed about all religious/supernatural beliefs in an objective way - without being told any particular one is "true".

Fair Play ... for all religions with the ending of state funding for one denomination only

Fair Play ... for every teacher with the ending of the current discrimination against "non-believers" in respect of promoted and other posts in denominational schools.

So I'm in favour of fair play for everyone, not just one group.

socrates82

Aber1991

Please spell out your guarantees that Catholic children, Catholic teachers and the Catholic religon would get fair play in non-denominational schools.

I am not in a position to guarantee anything.

However, "fair play" is something I'd like to see with a switch to truly religiously-neutral schools:

Fair Play ... for all children, who should be informed about all religious/supernatural beliefs in an objective way - without being told any particular one is "true".

Fair Play ... for all religions with the ending of state funding for one denomination only

Fair Play ... for every teacher with the ending of the current discrimination against "non-believers" in respect of promoted and other posts in denominational schools.

So I'm in favour of fair play for everyone, not just one group.

How are you going to ensure fair play for Catholics in non-denominational schools? Can you be unaware that  it was anti-Catholic bigotry by WASPS which drove the Catholic Church to establish its own schools in Ireland, England, Scotland, the USA, Australia, New Zealand and Canada?

Here we go again.

Fair play for catholics …. Can you be unaware that it was anti-catholic bigotry by WASPS which drove the church to establish her own schools in Ireland, England, Scotland, the USA, Australia, New Zealand and Canada?

The past is dead. An historical answer starts from an awareness of the applicable law: CJC (1917), IV.iv.22, c.1372-c.1382. The notion that WASP bigotry drove a world-wide church, under clear central direction, to any decision whatsoever as regards the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, the old Dominions or the USA is false. The eternal city stands above any mere Anglophone issue of the passing moment. According to the work of Pius X, completed by Benedict XV (both working in collaboration with Cardinal Gasparri and the future-Pius XII), the authentic driving force behind denominational schools is catholic jurisprudence.

The law is clear. The duty to educate children lies squarely on parents and guardians [not the state]. Bishops are required to make provision for schools. CJC forbids boys (in context, girls are honorary boys) to attend non-catholic, “neutral” or “mixed” schools for fear they be “perverted”. Such attendance may, with permission, be “tolerated” [but never approbated]. Where denominational schools (or universities) do not exist, local bishops are required to found them, the costs of foundation and maintenance falling on church and parents. Masters (in context, women are honorary men) and books are to be approved, and removed (for religious or moral cause) by church authorities. Unaberrant Rome has spoken.

Codex juris canonici Pii X digestus, Benedicti XV promulgates (Rome, 1918), Liber Quartus, Pars Quarta, Titulus XXII, knows one exception to rules 1372-82: rule 1113 (removing rights of guilty parties in matrimonial proceedings in favour of the innocent). Should the guilty party happen to be a catholic and the innocent party not, then the party guilty of the matrimonial offence controls the children’s education. The notion that, no matter who offenders be they ought to be “our” offenders, goes back a long way. We started, it may be recalled, with a demand for fair play for Roman-Catholics; let's also try for fair play by Roman-Catholics.

The treatment of denominational schools in 1918 was more than generous: Alex Salmond’s point. People of faith ought to be grateful that UK taxpayers shouldered the burdens that contemporaneous bishops of Rome actually placed on their own flock. As the time comes to review Westminster’s laws, it seems there could be no better template for the future of faith schools than the CJC code: church schools are to be paid for from church resources. A clear majority of Scots (of all denominations and of none) think state funding should be phased out. Back in 1914-17 Pius X and Benedict XV never once imagined state funding. So who exactly is it that is abberant and unaware of that old CJC cause, that gives all their schooling, religion and laws?

Heck, Eck, SNP for CJC!  

"The past is dead."

The past might be dead but the lessons of the past are not dead. 

"The notion that WASP bigotry drove a world-wide church, under clear central direction, to any decision whatsoever as regards the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, the old Dominions or the USA is false."

It is not false.

"Should the guilty party happen to be a catholic and the innocent party not, then the party guilty of the matrimonial offence controls the children’s education."

I disapprove of Catholics having sex with heretics.  If you are concerned about the welfare of Protestants who marry Catholics, why do you want integrated education - a development which would probably lead to an increase in miscengation.

"The treatment of denominational schools in 1918 was more than generous:"

In Scotland it was. Also in Holland. It was not generous in Northern Ireland. 

"A clear majority of Scots (of all denominations and of none) think state funding should be phased out. "

If a majority of Scots think that all Catholics should commit suicide, should all Catholics comply with the wishes of that majority? 

Cthulthu

Given the news from Ireland this week, it would seem that it is Catholic clergy that Catholic children need protection from.

Lease that to Catholics to decide.  If you do not like Catholic schools, do not send your child to a Catholic school. 

The Catholic Education Service has not sent out snatch squads to grab children from the streets or homes and haul them off to a Catholic school.  Many Catholic schools are over-subscribed with the Catholic authorities being badgered for giving priority to the children of Catholcis. Yes, believe it or not, there are people who have demanded that Catholic schools turn away the children of Catholics so that they will be able to accomodate the chidlren of non-Catholics.  

I am very suspicious of non-Catholics who crave power over defenceless Catholic children.

Aber1991

I am very suspicious of non-Catholics who crave power over defenceless Catholic children.

airy

Aber1991

I am very suspicious of non-Catholics who crave power over defenceless Catholic children.

What about Catholics who crave power over defenceless children?

Never hard about any.  Many of those in charge of Catholic schools spend a big part of their time explaning why they cannot accept certain children to the school.  Demand for places often exceeds supply of places.

Cthulthu

None so deaf as those who will not hear.

And none so blind as those who will not see.

Aber1991

airy

Aber1991

I am very suspicious of non-Catholics who crave power over defenceless Catholic children.

What about Catholics who crave power over defenceless children?

Never heard about any. 

Fred Aitken is 70 years old and still he is haunted by sounds - the racket of children "banging their heads against the walls of the dormitories". The walls were in a gothic mansion called Nazareth House, an orphanage in Aberdeen where Aitken was dispatched when he was six. There, he says, nuns regularly beat him and made him witness the violent degradation of other children. Sleep was routinely interrupted by their constant checks for children wetting their beds and the beating that followed. One bed-wetter was held out of the window by her ankles as punishment. "You woke up to this thrashing. Nuns with leather straps hanging from their waist beside their rosary beads. The strap was socially acceptable. The excuse is that it was normal in those days."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/apr/12/religion.childprotection

Faith schools themselves are not without their own issues on "fair play".

Perhaps that's all unsurprising, given that many "faith leaders", especially some here in Scotland, are regularly openly homophobic. Even a former trainee priest says so.

 http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2012/03/11/gay-ex-priest-condemns-cardinal-keith-o-brien-s-outburst-on-same-sex-marriage-86908-23784445/

Aber1991

Lease that to Catholics to decide.