You're absolutely right in everything you've said.

...

[edited by: northber at 22:27 (GMT 0) on 12-7-2012]

Good point well made!

Our last music specialist had five different primary schools to cover every single week. When she retired she wasn't replaced for almost a year.

Whilst I agree specialist provision could, and should, be built into the 'McCrone' cover provisions, that would mean LAs employing music, and other, specialists rather than general primary teachers who can be redeployed in other posts as circumstances change.

Employing more music, and other, specialists would require a commitment to the principle that primary pupils deserve to be taught specialist subjects by appropriately qualified teachers.

We actually saw significant improvements in the provision of primary specialists during the 1970s, ironically a time when the country was in financial difficulty. Factories were on short-term working, we sat in the dark two nights a week because of power cuts and no-one was allowed to take more than £50 spending money on foreign holidays.

Yet, in our primaries we had specialist teachers for Music, PE, Art and Fabric Craft and instrumental instructors for strings, and brass, and sometimes both. In addition to area orchestras, there were workshops for tuned, and untuned, percussion and centres for drama and outdoor education.

Then along came the relatively more prosperous 80s and 90s and it was decided that, with falling school rolls, we could no longer afford such specialist provision. HMI even did their bit by suggesting that the class teacher should be primarily responsible for the entire curriculum.

Outdoor Education centres could no longer be subsidised, LA Drama Centres were closed, Fabric Craft teachers were phased out, Music, Art and PE specialists had their hours reduced, or the number of schools they had to cover increased, and instrumental instruction was cut back.

In short, it was decided that subjects such as Music could be covered by the primary class teacher even if they had little, if any, musical knowledge, experience or ability.

I've even heard some argue that children can still start to learn a musical instrument at secondary. That may be possible with a woodwind instrument but it doesn't work with strings. Nicola Benedetti started playing at the age of four.

So I can only assume that the powers-that-be are only paying lip-service to the concept of a broad and balanced curriculum for all pupils in the primary school.

What they actually want is a 'broad and balanced curriculum on paper', the maximum amount of in-school childcare provision and a generalist primary teacher who can be given responsibility for teaching everything and anything as the political whim takes them.

It's an education system that isn't fit for the 19th Century, never mind the 21st.

Our last music specialist had five different primary schools to cover every single week. When she retired she wasn't replaced for almost a year.

Whilst I agree specialist provision could, and should, be built into the 'McCrone' cover provisions, that would mean LAs employing music, and other, specialists rather than general primary teachers who can be redeployed in other posts as circumstances change.

Employing more music, and other, specialists would require a commitment to the principle that primary pupils deserve to be taught specialist subjects by appropriately qualified teachers.

We actually saw significant improvements in the provision of primary specialists during the 1970s, ironically a time when the country was in financial difficulty. Factories were on short-term working, we sat in the dark two nights a week because of power cuts and no-one was allowed to take more than £50 spending money on foreign holidays.

Yet, in our primaries we had specialist teachers for Music, PE, Art and Fabric Craft and instrumental instructors for strings, and brass, and sometimes both. In addition to area orchestras, there were workshops for tuned, and untuned, percussion and centres for drama and outdoor education.

Then along came the relatively more prosperous 80s and 90s and it was decided that, with falling school rolls, we could no longer afford such specialist provision. HMI even did their bit by suggesting that the class teacher should be primarily responsible for the entire curriculum.

Outdoor Education centres could no longer be subsidised, LA Drama Centres were closed, Fabric Craft teachers were phased out, Music, Art and PE specialists had their hours reduced, or the number of schools they had to cover increased, and instrumental instruction was cut back.

In short, it was decided that subjects such as Music could be covered by the primary class teacher even if they had little, if any, musical knowledge, experience or ability.

I've even heard some argue that children can still start to learn a musical instrument at secondary. That may be possible with a woodwind instrument but it doesn't work with strings. Nicola Benedetti started playing at the age of four.

So I can only assume that the powers-that-be are only paying lip-service to the concept of a broad and balanced curriculum for all pupils in the primary school.

What they actually want is a 'broad and balanced curriculum on paper', the maximum amount of in-school childcare provision and a generalist primary teacher who can be given responsibility for teaching everything and anything as the political whim takes them.

It's an education system that isn't fit for the 19th Century, never mind the 21st.

I don't care if the music specialist is to cover RCCT or not, we need people with specialist knowledge teaching it. I can read music and play brass, but I don't think I could teach it as well as someone who does it day in day out. Our music specialist did one day a week, meaning that we only got 2 terms a year. He retired over a year ago and he is not going to be replaced. I've seen "music lessons" where the teacher plugs in their iPod and gets the children to sing along. When questioned they say they don't know how to teach music, so do their best. Our children are being failed by the system.

Flyonthewall75

Employing more music, and other, specialists would require a commitment to the principle that primary pupils deserve to be taught specialist subjects by appropriately qualified teachers.

Exactly. A commitment by the LA, in other words, by the council that parents (voters) elect to run the education system on their behalf. As I said, it's a matter of political will, and at this point, in this country, the ball is in the parents' (voters') court.

I would point out that in many other jurisdictions in the developed world, particularly in North America, this kind of political commitment to fit-for-purpose music education in the primary school, as well as, I might add, to PE, goes without saying and would be withdrawn over parents' dead bodies.

I have seen parents in Canada take to the streets when the education authority dared to float the idea of cutting back on a PE or music program.

Why are Scottish parents so passive? Is it, as I asked in my first post, down to class again? The rich pay for theirs and the deil tak' the hindmost?

 

 

carol75

I can read music and play brass, but I don't think I could teach it as well as someone who does it day in day out. Our music specialist did one day a week, meaning that we only got 2 terms a year.

Imagine this: a school with a priority commitment to music education and a music teacher on staff. The music teacher teaches all the music classes (class teachers take part of their McCrone time then) and runs a school-wide integrated music program  for P1 through P7 with bands, choirs, shows, and concerts, all with staff support. All children have at least two classes a week with the music teacher and according to their stage, a chance to learn a band/orchestral instrument, at no cost, with no elitist auditions. The school is full of children singing and playing live instruments, not mouthing to CDs, and there might even be a staff choir! Within a year, everyone is remarking how behaviour, attitudes, and even attainment are improving----and who saw that coming?!

carol75

Our children are being failed by the system.

 

Because our politicians are negligent and our parents are passive.

Flyonthewall75

....

I've even heard some argue that children can still start to learn a musical instrument at secondary. That may be possible with a woodwind instrument but it doesn't work with strings.

If I can divert the topic of the thread slightly, Fly, ... why? Apart from teaching musical competence/confidence and the (obvious) the earlier you learn a skill the better, and the more you can build on it.

Is it related at all to the pointlessness of starting a MFL in secondary because it's too late by then to learn to discern sounds which are not part of one's native tongue(s)....?

poor tom

If I can divert the topic of the thread slightly, Fly, ... why?

With a stringed instrument, it generally takes about 8 years of instruction and practice to develop the necessary technical ability to produce a good standard of playing.

That means starting around the age of 7/8 (Primary 4) in schools, or earlier if using other methods. This is possible because they produce 1/2 and 3/4 size instruments suitable for playing with small fingers and hands.

In contrast, with a woodwind instrument such as a flute, it is possible to achieve a good standard of playing within about 4 years. Children don't usually start before the age of about 10 years because their fingers need to be able to rest comfortably over the standard, full-sized Boehm system of keys. The recorder is a good introductory instrument for small fingers and hands.

The issue of studying a MFL at primary school, and as early as possible, is I think related to the way in which young children acquire language generally in the home and at school. We all develop language - as opposed to a language - by first listening to those around us communicating.

Some of us may have experience of an EAL pupil being placed in our class with very little, or even no, English. For the first few weeks it can be very confusing for them and they appear to have little understanding of what is being said around them.

However, that first stage of emersion in an unfamiliar language is as important as any input they get from an EAL teacher and it is sometimes surprising how fast they come on by just being with other children. The other aspect of learning a new language from a young age is that young children tend to be natural mimics and love to play games with new words and sounds.

Getting back to the issue of music, one of the things the Raploch project appears to show is that learning to play a musical instrument from a young age helps to develop other skills important in learning and social development - the ability to concentrate, to play a part in a larger group, to develop hand, eye and brain coordination, to listen and respond to pitch, rhythm and tempo and, of course, to take pleasure in making live music.

However, if I have one criticism of the televised concert that showed the children and young people performing with the professional orchestra, there were occasions when the broadcast soundmix gave the impression that the children and young people were performing like a professional orchestra. When children and young instrumentalists play in an orchestra, we shouldn't expect to hear a professional sound. I suspect there are some, however, who have little idea of the work that goes into developing musical skills and think that it is as easy as pushing a button on the X-Factor.

Of course the key issue is whether the SG is prepared to match the sort of resources that were put into the Raploch project to develop music making in all our schools. Are they prepared to provide high quality, and properly staffed, Music and MFL programmes in all primary schools or is it just another box-ticking exercise that will be cobbled together using already over-stretched class teachers?

Flyonthewall75

one of the things the Raploch project appears to show is that learning to play a musical instrument from a young age helps to develop other skills important in learning and social development - t

Not only other skills, but attitudes and habits and ways of being human. Music education is not just about learning the technique of playing an instrument---as if literacy were learning to say the alphabet! Music education, like literacy education, or PE, or art education, or maths education, is about so much more than some list of skills compiled by some box-ticker in some EducationScotland office somewhere in cyberspace.

Flyonthewall75

the SG is prepared to match the sort of resources that were put into the Raploch project to develop music making in all our schools. Are they prepared to provide high quality, and properly staffed, Music and MFL programmes i

As I have said before, little expenditure is needed to bring fit-for-purpose Big Noise-style music education to Scottish schools.

What is needed is a huge change in mindset.

The first thing to be done is put fully-trained music teachers ON STAFF full time in primary schools. End itinerant and piece-meal music teaching! Make it possible for the music teacher to create and deliver a music programme for the whole school. Make it possible for the music teacher to get to know all the children in the school, their special abilities and interests. Their names, even!

The timetable must then be structured to enable the music teacher to implement the school's music programme, teaching ALL music classes (class teachers would be on NCCT) and controlling, if not directing, choirs, bands, and ensembles. This is the bit I find that people here can't grasp: the fact that the music specialist takes responsibility for ALL the music in the school and in effect delivers the school's music programme. Class teachers have input and assist, of course, in a collegial and collaborative way, especially in all the time-consuming preparation for concerts and shows, but the music teacher is central, but class teachers are NOT expected to teach the music. 

So far, not one extra penny spent and we're 90% there. With the music teacher and his/her timetable in place, the school then sets about, with the help of parents and community, raising money to purchase a school set of band instruments which can be rented out to children for a nominal fee to cover the requisite cleaning and maintenance at the end of the year or term. Children would also be able to purchase their own instruments of course, and many parents may prefer to do this. We found this to be the case at our school in Canada, once children had decided upon an instrument--and yes, I am talking primary school here. All the children in my school did band in P6 and P7, this after several years of recorder (P4-P5), and before that, regular classroom singing and rhythm instruments (P1-P3). ALL the children. All free, beyond the nominal instrument fee of a couple of dollars a term.

So, no fancy budget, no overstressed classroom teachers. Just one full-time on-staff music teacher with the full support of LA, staff, parents, and community can make a good start on a Big Noise-style music programme. Ask any music teacher about this! They know how to do it, but as itinerant specialists taking one class out of four every two weeks in three or four schools, they are spread way too thin---and what a waste of their talent!

So, free universal music education from P1 through P7 can happen with hardly a penny of new money. It just needs a huge shift in political will and a sea-change in LA thinking about personnel deployment, to deliver a Big Noise-style programme within the school curriculum.  

 

Thanks, Fly...

I agree absolutely that children should experience high quality music & MFL learning from the earliest age - drama, too, of course, but you'd expect a drama teacher to say that anyway...

Indeed, all arts skills interact with the whole child, and their ability to calculate, communicate and reason.

CanuckGrrl

This is the bit I find that people here can't grasp: the fact that the music specialist takes responsibility for ALL the music in the school and in effect delivers the school's music programme.

Yes, but most Music Specialists will have piano and singing as part of their music qualification. They will have experience of recorder, tuned and untuned percussion and they may have studied a second instrument as part of their music degree.

The school would still require instrumental instructors.

Secondary schools employ instructors for violin and viola, cello and double bass, woodwind (flute, clarinet, oboe and bassoon), brass (cornet, trumpet, various horns, trombone and tuba), guitar, piano, keyboard and percussion. Most music specialists would struggle to tune these instruments never mind play them or teach others how to play them.

CanuckGrrl

So far, not one extra penny spent and we're 90% there.

It would certainly be good if it was cost-neutral. However, let's take the example of a single-stream, 7 class primary school with a visiting music specialist one day a week.

NCCT cover would be 7 X 2.5 hours = 17.5 teaching hours (or less if P1 and 2 have a shorter school day).

Increasing the music specialist's timetable from one day a week to full time would do away with the need for NCCT cover but would require an additional 20 teaching hours.

The difference of 2.5 hours a week (or half a day) may seem small but over the year it adds up and would still need to be funded.

CanuckGrrl

Class teachers have input and assist, of course, in a collegial and collaborative way, especially in all the time-consuming preparation for concerts and shows, but the music teacher is central

This could be successful provided the Music Specialist is able to arrange music for a large range of instruments suitable for primary age pupils. With instruments tuned to C, B flat, E flat and F, it is no easy task to arrange simple parts, written in different keys, that pupils of all abilities can play. In fact, just getting them all more or less in tune is a challenge in itself as I have found out from experience.

CanuckGrrl

This is the bit I find that people here can't grasp: the fact that the music specialist takes responsibility for ALL the music in the school and in effect delivers the school's music programme.

Yes, but most Music Specialists will have piano and singing as part of their music qualification. They will have experience of recorder, tuned and untuned percussion and they may have studied a second instrument as part of their music degree.

The school would still require instrumental instructors.

Secondary schools employ instructors for violin and viola, cello and double bass, woodwind (flute, clarinet, oboe and bassoon), brass (cornet, trumpet, various horns, trombone and tuba), guitar, piano, keyboard and percussion. Most music specialists would struggle to tune these instruments never mind play them or teach others how to play them.

CanuckGrrl

So far, not one extra penny spent and we're 90% there.

It would certainly be good if it was cost-neutral. However, let's take the example of a single-stream, 7 class primary school with a visiting music specialist one day a week.

NCCT cover would be 7 X 2.5 hours = 17.5 teaching hours (or less if P1 and 2 have a shorter school day).

Increasing the music specialist's timetable from one day a week to full time would do away with the need for NCCT cover but would require an additional 20 teaching hours.

The difference of 2.5 hours a week (or half a day) may seem small but over the year it adds up and would still need to be funded.

CanuckGrrl

Class teachers have input and assist, of course, in a collegial and collaborative way, especially in all the time-consuming preparation for concerts and shows, but the music teacher is central

This could be successful provided the Music Specialist is able to arrange music for a large range of instruments suitable for primary age pupils.

With a variety of instruments tuned to C, B flat, E flat and F, it is no easy task arranging music, in different keys, that pupils of all ability can play. Just getting them all more or less in tune is a challenge in itself as I have found out from experience.

CanuckGrrl

With the music teacher and his/her timetable in place, the school then sets about, with the help of parents and community, raising money to purchase a school set of band instruments which can be rented out to children for a nominal fee to cover the requisite cleaning and maintenance at the end of the year or term.

This may be one of the key issues that needs to be addressed.

In Scotland, getting parents to contribute towards a £7 descant recorder is a challenge in itself. Getting them to invest in, or contribute towards, a £200, £300 or £400 instrument is usually a non-starter at least until their child has shown some ability or interest.

The bottom line is most parents here expect everything within education to be provided free, including the childcare, so I am envious that parents in Canada are prepared to invest in musical instruments.

CanuckGrrl

So, free universal music education from P1 through P7 can happen with hardly a penny of new money.

I would like to think that was true. Unfortunately, I don't see a sea-change in SG, LA or parents' thinking happening anytime soon. I'll be delighted to be proved wrong.

CanuckGrrl

With the music teacher and his/her timetable in place, the school then sets about, with the help of parents and community, raising money to purchase a school set of band instruments which can be rented out to children for a nominal fee to cover the requisite cleaning and maintenance at the end of the year or term.

This may be one of the key issues that needs to be addressed.

In Scotland, getting parents to contribute towards a £7 descant recorder is a challenge in itself. Getting them to invest in, or contribute towards, a £200, £300 or £400 instrument is usually a non-starter at least until their child has shown some ability or interest.

The bottom line is most parents here expect everything within education to be provided free, including the childcare, so I am envious that parents in Canada are prepared to invest in musical instruments.

CanuckGrrl

So, free universal music education from P1 through P7 can happen with hardly a penny of new money.

I would like to think that was true. Unfortunately, I don't see a sea-change in SG, LA or parents' thinking happening anytime soon. I'll be delighted to be proved wrong.

Flyonthewall75

most Music Specialists will have piano and singing as part of their music qualification

Hmmm. That's probably because that's mainly what they expect to teach, so it may be a bit of a supply-and-demand situation. If schools started implementing band programs (our schools in Canada focused on woodwinds and brass), you would probably soon see more music teachers graduating with band quals. 

 

Flyonthewall75

It would certainly be good if it was cost-neutral. However, let's take the example of a single-stream, 7 class primary school with a visiting music specialist one day a week....The difference of 2.5 hours a week (or half a day) may seem small but over the year it adds up and would still need to be funded.

I'm being facetious suggesting that it's completely cost-neutral, but I hoped that my rant would throw up examples such as yours which make it clear that free universal music education in primary doesn't have to cost the earth. Even in your small-school example (and small schools often require special financial consideration), the difference is, as you have pointed out, relatively minuscule and could be easily accounted for by making that particular music position part-time in proportion to the NCCT available. This reinforces my point that the decision NOT to provide on-staff music teachers, but to provide on-staff generalist teachers instead at the same cost, is political rather than fiscal /budgetary.

Flyonthewall75

This could be successful provided the Music Specialist is able to arrange music for a large range of instruments suitable for primary age pupils.

With a variety of instruments tuned to C, B flat, E flat and F, it is no easy task arranging music,

There are shedloads of arranged band music for primary schools in a myriad of musical genres and styles available from publishers, in the US, at least. No-one needs to reinvent any wheels arranging primary music! But yes, parents and the community might need to fundraise to purchase music for the school music programme. As for tuning instruments, music teachers with band quals can manage to do this and even show kids the rudiments.  

Flyonthewall75

Unfortunately, I don't see a sea-change in SG, LA or parents' thinking happening anytime soon.

Very sad, the huge inertia,  the massive resistance to change in this country.

That parental and community inertia is really holding Scotland back, but there are moments when they can shine.  Last year the Highland Council tried to shut down the Centre of Excellence For Traditional Music (attached to a lovely rural high school).  The pupils, former pupils, parents, teachers and locals fought like anything to keep it (the council wanted to take the money back for themselves, but it wasn't their money - it came from an earlier government initiative).  The facebook petition, created and promoted by a senior pupil, gained thousands of 'signatures' from all around the world.  They lobbied politicians, philanthropists and the media.  It actually worked (though it was a ridiculously stressful time).

 It just takes determination and gumption.  Pople need to realise that they have more power than they think. 

Hi there. Hopefully I'm not intruding on anyone's space to discuss education - I'm not a teacher, only a full-time working parent trying to get to grips with the Scottish education system, so I browse these forums once in awhile to help figure out what I need to do at home. I wasn't raised in the system myself, but will be raising my own children here for the forseeable future. But I wanted to respond to the assumption that parents of Scottish state-school students are passive and therefore don't care as much about their kids' education.

I too have been concerned about the state of music education in my step-daughter's primary school. She received zero real music education last school year year, save a grant-funded day (I think it was just a day) of Kodaly singing lessons. However, I did not find this out from the school itself. I found it out by asking my (at the time) five year old child if she received music lessons, and then confirming the lack thereof with her classroom teacher during a one-to-one conference.

I understand that not every school is like this, but my step-daughter's school is **terrible** at communicating pretty much anything to the parents in the community. The school website has been down since last January and we receive little paper documentation. We have no idea who my step-daughter's teacher is this coming school year, or whether she is in a composite class again. There is no up to date staff list, no published uniform policy, no handbook of school rules, no description of the real curriculum our children are meant to be tackling, and no expectations laid out for the parents. We are just plain expected to know, somehow. The monthly newsletter that the school publishes in the cute font is handy, but it doesn't cover nearly enough.

What I'm saying is, I think more parents where I am would actually pressure their local council governments to bring back specialist music, art and PE - especially in my area since all these things are still available at the fee-paying primaries. But most of us have been completely unaware that they were removed in the first place. It is the school's job to inform parents of what the situation actually is. Why on earth did I have to hear from my five year-old that there was no music instruction for her class during the entire 2011/12 school year? My husband and I have since written to our councillors and voiced our concerns, as we realize there's only so much the school itself can do, but we are just two people.

[edited by: MerkinExPat at 17:06 (GMT 0) on 10-8-2012]

MerkinExPat

It is the school's job to inform parents of what the situation actually is.

Unfortunately teachers, and Headteachers, are often in a difficult position. They are employees and, as such, they cannot openly criticise their LA employer for failure to provide adequate music provision.

That's why parents on the School Council have an important role to play in putting pressure on the LA, their local councillors and the Scottish Government to stop the cut-backs in primary specialist teachers.

Some schools are better at communicating with parents than others and I personally believe pupils should know their class, and class teacher, for the new session prior to the summer break, although obviously there are occasions when new appointments have not been finalised for a variety of reasons.

On the issue of staffing, school uniform policy, curriculum etc, this should be provided to parents in the School Handbook at the time of enrolment, or on request, and I am surprised that you have not been given this information. As far as I know it is required by law and has to be regularly updated in line with LA, and Scottish Government, guidelines.

It is possible that you may find the Curriculum for Excellence Guidelines somewhat vague. You are not alone. Unfortunately, teachers are required to implement them as best they can but, of course, there is nothing to stop parents seeking greater clarification from the LA and the Scottish Government although I suspect they will probably just refer you back to the school.

I hope this goes some way to explain the situation. As you say not all parents are passive in accepting cut-backs in education and schools are grateful for their support.